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View Poll Results: Is CM improving as a TV trainer & offering more apt advice
Yes 45 52.33%
No 41 47.67%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll - please see pinned thread in this section for details.



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tinkladyv
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28-09-2009, 09:15 AM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
But, you are not a dog behaviourist! So I can't see how you can be confident in dog behaviour work.

Even CM says "don't try this at home"

As Ramble said, I'm not getting at you either, so please don't take it like that. I am really quite saddened at your confidence because if you meet the wrong dog, and do an alpha roll, you will end up in casualty and the dog will be pts

Several of us on here do work with dogs as trainers/behaviourists, and we can say hand on heart that alpha rolling and pinning etc is a recipe for disaster, certainly with some dogs and some owners.

I'm not sure if you missed my earlier reply, but it is possible for some dogs to be so biddable that they are not tooooo affected by this treatment.

But if, say, your sister has another dog (or even this dog, on a bad day) and that dog is a different sort of dog, she may get seriously bitten - and what will happen to the dog then? It won't be the dog's fault, but no-one will trust it and no doubt, like several dogs some of us know of, due to CM techniques it will be pts

Also I find it sad that this was done to an anxious dog. Was it anxiety that made her/him jump up? as if so then best thing would be to work on that in general areas, increasing confidence, and training an alternative behaviour.

Your sister did some things that wouldn't work - for example, ignoring. (I presume you meant ignoring the jumping up, or did you mean ignoring the dog generally?) This is more likely to make an anxious dog jump up! than not as they find it veryhard to cope with being ignored; they try to appease (which can mean jumping up!)



Wys
x
As i put before, no im no dog behavourist/trainer, but few of us are?, nor do i have any wish to be.
All I have done is found a behavourist/trainer who i beleive in and has taught me amny things. I fully consulted with him the difficulties my sisiter was having and what she had tried, so we tried his method and it worked.
I did not do this because I saw it on TV!

My sisiter consulted several behavourists, with many different theories and suggestions.
Ignoring was done with the jumping up in that if he did she would turn away from him nad as he sat back down, she rewarded him. She persisterd with this for a good four weeks, but with very little success, meanwhile the behaviour was escalating.
We had no details of his background, he was a stray rescued from a pound in Ireland, due to be put to sleep.
He had obviously never received any love and of course this was the foundation of all my sisters work with him.
tinkladyv
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28-09-2009, 09:26 AM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
This isn't what the alpha roll says to a dog though,

The alpha roll is based on wolf studies (outdated, flawed studies, as scientists who supported them now agree).
Firstly, one cannot extrapolate wolf studies to dogs, but even if we did, the alpha roll is usually done by wolves who are after seriously warning or killing other wolves.

In other circumstances, there is lots of posturing and the wolf offers the roll.

As I say, dogs are not wolves anyway, but I think it's awful if you've been told or read that alpha rolling says to a dog that he can trust you, because it actually says quite the opposite. As people who have been bitten doing it will tell you

Wys
x
What can i say, i dont agree. I have read studdies, by both people who do and dont agree. I dont go into things half heartidly, i do my research and as i have put on several occasions, im always open to new ideas and methods, a lot of which i have tried, but they were not for me or my dogs.

I watch my collie do the Alpha roll on a regular basis, to any dog on the park that shows a bit of aggression or dominance - legs in the air on his back, hes such a happy chap who wants to be friends with everyone and it has the desired effect, the other dog calms down and before long they are having a good sniff of each other.
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28-09-2009, 09:29 AM
Originally Posted by tinkladyv View Post
What can i say, i dont agree. I have read studdies, by both people who do and dont agree. I dont go into things half heartidly, i do my research and as i have put on several occasions, im always open to new ideas and methods, a lot of which i have tried, but they were not for me or my dogs.

I watch my collie do the Alpha roll on a regular basis, to any dog on the park that shows a bit of aggression or dominance - legs in the air on his back, hes such a happy chap who wants to be friends with everyone and it has the desired effect, the other dog calms down and before long they are having a good sniff of each other.
The obvious difference is, your collie is a dog reacting to another dog..
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28-09-2009, 09:46 AM
Originally Posted by tinkladyv View Post
What can i say, i dont agree. I have read studdies, by both people who do and dont agree. I dont go into things half heartidly, i do my research and as i have put on several occasions, im always open to new ideas and methods, a lot of which i have tried, but they were not for me or my dogs.

I watch my collie do the Alpha roll on a regular basis, to any dog on the park that shows a bit of aggression or dominance - legs in the air on his back, hes such a happy chap who wants to be friends with everyone and it has the desired effect, the other dog calms down and before long they are having a good sniff of each other.
That is not an alpha roll.......
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28-09-2009, 09:47 AM
Originally Posted by tinkladyv View Post
As i put before, no im no dog behavourist/trainer, but few of us are?, nor do i have any wish to be.
All I have done is found a behavourist/trainer who i beleive in and has taught me amny things. I fully consulted with him the difficulties my sisiter was having and what she had tried, so we tried his method and it worked.
I did not do this because I saw it on TV!

My sisiter consulted several behavourists, with many different theories and suggestions.
Ignoring was done with the jumping up in that if he did she would turn away from him nad as he sat back down, she rewarded him. She persisterd with this for a good four weeks, but with very little success, meanwhile the behaviour was escalating.
We had no details of his background, he was a stray rescued from a pound in Ireland, due to be put to sleep.
He had obviously never received any love and of course this was the foundation of all my sisters work with him.
Have you thought that maybe 4 weeks just wasn't long enough for this particular dog, using only the method of ignoring his jumping up?
You say your sister tried other methods to stop the dog from jumping. What other methods were used? How long did she use them for? And did she combine any 2 or more methods to get a better result, before alpha rolling and pinning him to the floor etc - which would probably have made him more anxious?

Alpha rolling, pinning, stringing up etc are not necessary for any dog IMHO but to use any of these methods on an already anxious dog without a full history just beggars belief. I think your sister was very lucky NOT to have already been injured.

Does she still have the dog? Is he still not responding to her methods? If so, feel free to hand him over. He'd have the time of his life with my dogs and would learn with the right amount of discipline, kindness and only positive methods.

Yes I agree that sometimes positive methods can take longer to get good results, particularyl if there's a headstrong dog involved in the training. But positive methods almost always work. Where a positive method doesn't work, no harm is done, either to the handler or the dog.

Laura xx
tinkladyv
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28-09-2009, 09:53 AM
Originally Posted by Ramble View Post
No problem for explaining I am not picking on you. We have all felt targeted for one reason or another on here, best not to take it personally and move on...in the next thread you'll be having a laugh with people.

I think you must have used force, quite a lot of it, with an anxious GSD that is jumping up, to get it into an alpha roll. I can't see that it could have been otherwise. I have seen CM alpha roll and he always seems to break into a sweat suggesting force is used. I do not have personal experience of alpha rolling (my dogs would think I was tickling them or having a TTouch session)but i do have experience of big dogs that are leaping around. No way could I alpha roll without force.

Why do you think clicker training is far removed from how a dog behaves naturally? You don't have to use clicker training to make a dog do 'tricks' you can use clicker training for absolutely anything at all. I have found clicker training makes my dog think for himself and i love to see that.

You didn't say what other methods you have used that you feel have dumbed your dog down?

Absolutely no need to apologise.

I've seen my dogs soft mouthing each other and it still looks painful...it isn't painful when they do it to me...but it has the potential to be.

Hmmmmm,...have you ever watched an episdoe of CM with the sound off? ALL of the episode. Watch a new episode and turn the volume off. Don't watch CM watch the dog.Watch the signals the dog is giving to CM...watch how the dog is trying to communicate with him but is ignored.


Indeed.
Before you watch the CM episode without sound...read that book. I personally think everyone with a dog should read it. It is a total must have if you want to understand what your dog is saying to you...
Again cheers for that. I think clearly stating that on here is good, as a wriiten message can be interpreted in many different ways.

I dont know what else to say about the amount of force i used, i can only explain what i did and there was very little required - thats what i liked about it. I was specifically told that if the dog was distressed to stop, but we didnt get that!

I find clicker training is getting my dog to peform a command. Of course they do follow commands such as sit, stay, come and walk to heel, but i only use them for safety of my dogs when out etc. I want a method that allows my dog to be a dog.
On that i would also like to say, that i totally respect others choice and see that it works wonderfully for many, which is great. There is not one way thats the right way and as long as everyone/animal is happy i dont see the problem- my dogs and my sisiters are thriving now!

i have used clicker, positive reinforcement training- food reward mostly and as a child with family dogs negative reinforcement which of course was the "thing to do" then.
I was paticually excited about positive reinforcement training , because i thought initially it was very similar to solution focussed theinking which i used in my proffession, but actually found it to be rather mad, very food orientated and left me with one very very hyperactive pup!

Of course i agree any dog has the potential to be painful with its bite, but i think the point is that they do soft mouth in a lot of situations with each other and that was what i was doing.

I have not watched an episode of CM with sound turned off and i shall do and will watch the dog.
Probably wont get to read the book before hand though as its just to tempting to try this and il feed back my thoughts and time with four dogs and a baby allows ltd time for reading, but i will get there looking forward to it.
tinkladyv
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28-09-2009, 09:56 AM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
Re. `Alpha Roll (gosh don`t these men love their macho terminology)
Physically overpowering an animal and rendering it helpless does not reassure it. Just for a minute, stop thinking of your dog as a hairy person and imagine you don`t have language or theories. You react to what happens. You learn by doing. A big creature forces you down into a position where you are helpless. How do you feel?
If you take away the anthropomorphism and mystical mind cr*p, dogs are pretty easy to figure out. They only have so many responses open to them. In the weight of overwhelming power (yours) they basically lie back and let it come. They have no other option. Your next move might be to kill them or give them a biscuit, but they have no choice. This is called learned helplessness. Used to be called breaking their spirit.

I agree dogs are pretty easy to figure out on the whole and i know about learned helplessness and breaking spirits, but this is not what i was doing at all.
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28-09-2009, 09:58 AM
Originally Posted by tinkladyv View Post
Again cheers for that. I think clearly stating that on here is good, as a wriiten message can be interpreted in many different ways.

I dont know what else to say about the amount of force i used, i can only explain what i did and there was very little required - thats what i liked about it. I was specifically told that if the dog was distressed to stop, but we didnt get that!

I find clicker training is getting my dog to peform a command. Of course they do follow commands such as sit, stay, come and walk to heel, but i only use them for safety of my dogs when out etc. I want a method that allows my dog to be a dog.
On that i would also like to say, that i totally respect others choice and see that it works wonderfully for many, which is great. There is not one way thats the right way and as long as everyone/animal is happy i dont see the problem- my dogs and my sisiters are thriving now!

i have used clicker, positive reinforcement training- food reward mostly and as a child with family dogs negative reinforcement which of course was the "thing to do" then.
I was paticually excited about positive reinforcement training , because i thought initially it was very similar to solution focussed theinking which i used in my proffession, but actually found it to be rather mad, very food orientated and left me with one very very hyperactive pup!

Of course i agree any dog has the potential to be painful with its bite, but i think the point is that they do soft mouth in a lot of situations with each other and that was what i was doing.

I have not watched an episode of CM with sound turned off and i shall do and will watch the dog.
Probably wont get to read the book before hand though as its just to tempting to try this and il feed back my thoughts and time with four dogs and a baby allows ltd time for reading, but i will get there looking forward to it.
The book is a really easy read. It isn't too long, but it is totally fascinating.
I really do suggest you read it, so you are 'up' on calming signals before you watch an episode with the sound off...it is enlightening in many ways. I actually think you would really like it too. Turid Rugaas is one trainer who is very into having dogs behaving naturally...but she is VERY far removed from CM. I actually do think you will like her.....(although she does NOT alpha roll....)
tinkladyv
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28-09-2009, 10:24 AM
Originally Posted by Mahooli View Post
I really think that some people are either blind due to their 'love and admiration' for CM or have absolutely no idea about dog behaviour and body language, more than likely both!




So you alpha roll with out touching then? How would you feel if I pinned you to the floor with sufficient force so that you couldn't get up? Nothing calm there!



Then it is clear you do not have a clue how a dog learns. Probably it is because you are unable to clicker train correctly with nanosecond timing that you don't like it. People don't like things they don't understand.



So you would be my best buddy if I punched you then?

Picture of Shadow from CM programme, dog collapsed shortly after this with a blue tongue resulting from his air supply being cut off due to CM's methods. Could the CM lovers explain what CM is doing if he isn't string this dog up who is fighting for life (if you see the rest of the programme.

I don't thing any of you replied to the last post I put with all this on.
To be honest I am totally disgusted that there are some people who see nothing wrong with kicking, poking, jabbing, pinning, rolling, shocking and stringing up dogs in the name of training.
NG also did not show an episode I wanted to watch regarding Teddy the Poodle that apprently is quite disturbing and was due to be shown on Friday but wasn't. That too was a horrfying incident with a very frightened dog and there is no video link on the NG website either, much like they have removed the one of Shadow.
Becky
Im finding your posts paticually aggresive, maybe im reading them wrong, but you have left me feeling like this before on another thread and thats why i didnt come on for quite a while. I just wonder if we could both just respect that we do not agree in general and not attack.
Thank you

I admire CM for his passion in dogs, he worked for a long time without a TV camera and as far as im aware i dont think he sought out fame. But if you were reffering to me in this comment i do not generally take advise from TV and general media, as i find it hyped and edited etc. So much so. I no longer read the paper and last year, we had a whole year without the tV and i must say it was wonderful and will be doing it again.

In my opinion i do understand my dogs body language and behaviours, but im no expert nad that is why i have on many occasions sought expert advice from many different avenues and also just spent time with my dogs and speaking to different owners etc. I learn everday from my pack and from people i meet.

I think i have clarified on several occasions what i actually did with the Alpha roll, there was very little force required of course i touched the dog. Please re read what i posted before for clarifacation.

If you new me and my dogs and the time i am required to spend and work with them, you would understand that i expect nothing quickly. I work with ex breeding dogs on the whole and adopted two, They dont work fast and it would be detrimental to try.
I tried clicker tarining and i didnt enjoy what i felt it was about and for me it was not right, that is my choice.
My whole life is about trying to slow down and enjoy, so your presumptions on me, im my opinion are quite wrong and disrespectful.

Of course i would not be your best buddy if you hit me!.

I have never kicked, poked, jabbed, rolling, shocked or strung up any dog full stop!.

I have never seen the episode with shadow, but did try with your links, so therefor there was no comment i could make to your post, i was not ignoring it.
tinkladyv
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28-09-2009, 10:26 AM
Originally Posted by Ramble View Post
The book is a really easy read. It isn't too long, but it is totally fascinating.
I really do suggest you read it, so you are 'up' on calming signals before you watch an episode with the sound off...it is enlightening in many ways. I actually think you would really like it too. Turid Rugaas is one trainer who is very into having dogs behaving naturally...but she is VERY far removed from CM. I actually do think you will like her.....(although she does NOT alpha roll....)
Ok, im off to the libary with my sonn after playgroup, so will try to get hold of a copy
will let you no, thanks
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