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Location: dogsville
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,141
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31-07-2009, 02:56 PM
Originally Posted by CheekyChihuahua 
Arrrrh, so you are saying then that the photograph of him with the dogs was taken when the dogs were calm after a major run around to wear them out. Right, I see
What is that term - "clutching at straws" - there comes a time you have to accept that CM has control over his dogs and they are not petrified of him, as seen on his shows; as seen in pictures. As for re-posting the footage of CM "slapping" the dog, what point? You will say that the dog was just about to roll over and be a good doggy. I will say that CM did nothing wrong just a touch with the hand to gain the dogs attention. What earthly point in going over old ground
Mind you, I had envisaged a reply saying that the dogs were drugged or the picture had been "doctored" so the argument you've come up with isn't all that bad
considering
A touch...for the record...makes no sound.
Personally...given how busy CM is, I don't think he actually has much to do with his dogs.
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Location: n/a
Joined: Sep 2008
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31-07-2009, 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by Ramble
Yes i had spotted the dig..slightly more subtle than it has been of late, but it didn't go unnoticed.
A touch...for the record...makes no sound.
Personally...given how busy CM is, I don't think he actually has much to do with his dogs.
As for the "touch" comment, that rather depends on what you are touching and, when being recorded, the slightest touch can make a big sound, even if the touch wasn't harsh.
So now we're back to CM not being responsible for his dogs great temperaments because he doesn't have much to do with his dogs! I knew there'd be some answer but I thought there might have just been a little credibility to it
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Location: UK
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 13,122
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31-07-2009, 03:01 PM
Thats abn intersting picture. Mine don't walk that close to me unless I have handfulls of titbits. They tend to want to sniff around on walks and be dogs.
No gundogs there (G)
rune
Of cause you could, you ever heard of telescopic lenses...
Originally Posted by rune
Another interesting link.
http://vetmedicine.about.com/b/2009/...sar-millan.htm
rune
Surely when reading those articles it must make those who see no wrong in CM stop for even a second and wonder why such bodies as the (AVSAB) and American College of Veterinary Behaviorists (ACVB) are so disillusioned with him..
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Location: dogsville
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,141
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31-07-2009, 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by CheekyChihuahua
Sorry if I was subtle, wasn't intentional
As for the "touch" comment, that rather depends on what you are touching and, when being recorded, the slightest touch can make a big sound, even if the touch wasn't harsh.
So now we're back to CM not being responsible for his dogs great temperaments because he doesn't have much to do with his dogs! I knew there'd be some answer but I thought there might have just been a little credibility to it
How do you know his dogs have great temperaments and how do you know he has anything to do with them?
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Location: Wakefield England
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,697
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31-07-2009, 03:07 PM
I suppose why i posed the question originally was to get some thoughts from both sides the people who don't follow is methods have said everything i expected them to the people that do train Ceasars way have said they would do it the same way.
But say i was to Moll to CM would he see it as willfull disobedience, (Which to some extent it is) and try to take that out of her with some of the more extreme methods demonstrated on his program
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Location: Stirlingshire
Joined: Oct 2006
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31-07-2009, 03:09 PM
It wasn't CM but I read or heard some where, just before I got Mister, start in the house, don't use the name, or the come word, when they are in another room say in a nice voice " where is she " she'll come and find you, you can give her a big fuss n cuddle when she does, do it as many times during the day in doors as you can, when your cooking dinner, watching telly ( if you get the chance to, i know I don't ) lol, when ever shes outta sight " where is she ", once shes got that in doors, try it in the garden, what happened with Mister is he thinks its a game and he comes back no matter where he is every time I say where is he, he jumped a ditch with Inka, went into the ferns and when I said where is he he was in a panik trying to get back through the bushes to me, he loves it lol, I've had him since the 9th july and do this everyday with him, I can not believe the results from it, any things worth a try xx
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Location: UK
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31-07-2009, 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by Ramble
Hmmm.
I think there is a basic misunderstanding throughout these threads to be honest.
I think that the Pro CMers think the anti Cmers see him as someone who is stringing dogs up, kicking them and hitting them 24/7. I don't think that for one moment,nor do I think his supporters do that all the time.
As I have said countless times...I have no issue with calm and assertive...and his advice re food and exercise, it's all good stuff and I am sure most of the anti CMers are calm and assertive and feed and exercise their dogs well.
My issue is with the shows. It si with showing people that a way to control a dog is to kick,choke or hit it ...or use a prong or ecollar. I don't approve of the methods..no matter how short a time they are used for, I cannot condone them being used at all. I abhor methods like that and the whole 'I need to dominate the dog' approach.
It doesn't matter if he just strings a dog up once...one time is too many in my book. The footage I put up on the Dog Whisperer thread clearly shows him slapping a dog...on the footage I put on here it shows him telling an owner he is being dominant and that his dog is not 'intimidated' by him,but submissive, because he has to be dominant.I just don't like that approach..in life in general let alone with my dogs.
At the end of the day...I am sure he is able to live calmy and assertively with his dogs BUT the methods he uses to get to that point are what bother me. I also don't think such methods should be being advocated for the use of the general public, no matter what warning is flashed up people do use the methods...I've seen it out and about and heard people talking about it. It is all a serious accident waiting to happen.
As I say...I dont'think he wanders round slamming his dogs into an alpha roll every 2 minutes. I do question his methods though and will continue to do so.
I agree with the highlighted... I have also said on occasion that one thing CM does do is educate some to the fact that dogs need to be exercised, and like you, have no problem with the calm /assertive...its all the other stuff, I dont like.
His never ending dominance issue, his harsh treatment, the stringing up, the alpha rolling the flooding that is so wrong!!
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Location: Romford, uk
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 14,265
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31-07-2009, 03:31 PM
Originally Posted by Ramble
Hmmm.
I think there is a basic misunderstanding throughout these threads to be honest.
I think that the Pro CMers think the anti Cmers see him as someone who is stringing dogs up, kicking them and hitting them 24/7. I don't think that for one moment,nor do I think his supporters do that all the time.
I don't string my dogs up at all, let alone all the time,I don't kick them although I have been known to toudh them with my feet I prefer to use my hands. As for hitting my dogs well that's only done in play ( they like a good slapping)
As I have said countless times...I have no issue with calm and assertive...and his advice re food and exercise, it's all good stuff and I am sure most of the anti CMers are calm and assertive and feed and exercise their dogs well.
My issue is with the shows. It si with showing people that a way to control a dog is to kick,choke or hit it ...or use a prong or ecollar. I don't approve of the methods..no matter how short a time they are used for, I cannot condone them being used at all. I abhor methods like that and the whole 'I need to dominate the dog' approach.
It doesn't matter if he just strings a dog up once...one time is too many in my book. The footage I put up on the Dog Whisperer thread clearly shows him slapping a dog...on the footage I put on here it shows him telling an owner he is being dominant and that his dog is not 'intimidated' by him,but submissive, because he has to be dominant.What mystifies me is why the anti's spend so much time watching him on t.v What do you get out of it?
I just don't like that approach..in life in general let alone with my dogs.
At the end of the day...I am sure he is able to live calmy and assertively with his dogs BUT the methods he uses to get to that point are what bother me. I also don't think such methods should be being advocated for the use of the general public, no matter what warning is flashed up people do use the methods...I've seen it out and about and heard people talking about it. It is all a serious accident waiting to happen.
Like I said before I doubt his methods are so different from mine. Lots of people get clicker training wrong too, people misunderstand things all the time, that's not his fault. Oh I accept misunderstanding clicker training isn't going to lead to a serious accident but misunderstanding dogs generally will.
As I say...I dont'think he wanders round slamming his dogs into an alpha roll every 2 minutes. I do question his methods though and will continue to do so.
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Location: Devon,UK
Joined: Jun 2009
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31-07-2009, 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by Sarah27
This may be just semantics, but isn't that the perfect description of 'dominance'?
i.e. the strongest/fittest dominate the weak/ill by beating/injuring/killing them in a fight?
A definition of dominant:
1: a:commanding, controlling, or prevailing over all others
b: very important, powerful, or successful
2: overlooking and commanding from a superior position
So by definition the breeding pair controls the pack because they are the only ones who breed - they control the size and wellbeing of the pack. So they 'dominate' the pack.
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Location: Glasgow, UK
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31-07-2009, 05:22 PM
Originally Posted by Lizzy23
PS On tHe CM Thing how do you excert calm assertive energy, over a dog who is too far away to interact with, and who a nudge or a tap or whatever will damage all the work you have done building her confidence?
To me as its been said in the other thread CM is all about domination, how do you impose that domination in recall training, especially with a nervy dog, who at the beginning if escaped wouldn't come within 20yrds.
Rune your right sometimes you just look at a dog and know that they are going to Naff, had it with a few of the fosters, however i have also had dogs on foster that are supposed to have dodgy recall which have been fine when out with mine
Some perhaps relevant tips from him though. He advised giving a sniffing obsessed Beagle some nose work to do. He explained that this would satisfy the urge and make them more manageable.
Very many beagle experts recommend never letting a beagle off-lead because they can't resist following their noses. However, pack hounds are walked in large numbers (perhaps 50) along roads with just the pack master and one helper. I'm told by a friend that visited one pack that they have tremendous control over the hounds. For example, at feeding time the pack master was able to tell the fatter dogs to stop eating and let the skinny ones get extra food. All I know about their training is that young, inexperienced hounds are tied to an experienced dog to learn the ropes. It is forced to obey commands as it is physically bound to the older dog.
Anyway, some tips from me based upon my experience.
We have a reliable emergency recall. It always works. But it's not much practical use really. You'd have to call them 200 times in a walk and it'd soon loose it's power. We used to have a reliable 'come' too, but it stopped working because we had to use it too much.
So now we're working on keeping their attention on us so that we don't need to use recall. With just a little bit of work we're now at a stage where we can walk around the park with the dogs glued to our sides live velcro dogs! And believe it or not the secret was ignoring them - trying to be exciting didn't work, yet the moment we ignore them they are DESPERATE to please! You wouldn't believe the lengths we used to go to in order to be exciting to our dogs - all we achieved was making them so excited and wound up that they ran off to let off steam!!!
The approach we now use was recommended by our agility teacher. Try it - you might be pleasantly surprised.
I'm assuming your dog will eat treats at home? If not wait until he's really hungry and use his food.
Next time she's in the garden (or the lounge if the garden is to exciting) doing her own thing take 6 pieces of his favorite food and go out and join her. Wander around completely ignoring her. Be patient. Eventually she'll wander over. Give her a treat but otherwise continue to ignore her. Keep walking. In time she'll start to follow. Reward her for this. Once you've got her attention keep changing direction. Make her work harder to get a reward. When she's really doing well perhaps introduce a 'sit' and continue walking. Use a release word 'OK' for example. Now OK just means "you're released from the command - do what you want" but she'll almost certainly run to you. This soon becomes a good 'roundabout' way of getting your dog to come to you without actually telling them to!
Anyway, the idea it so keep building up a more and more complex routine. Always ignore other than to give a basic command. And make them work harder and harder for that treat. Don't lure or help - just make them use that brain to figure out how to release the treat.
Very slowly take your routine out to more and more stimulating places. Practice twice a day.
It sounds lame, I know. But it really is working with ours. They ignore other dogs, people, each other, scents. BUT so far we're only taken it on the road to a dog enclosure and one park. Our main problem was that they stay so close that they weren't getting enough exercise so we put a fetch game and a chase game into the routine. Fetch and Chase are both good roundabout ways of getting your dogs to you with out doing to death your recall command. Although I can honestly say that they rarely leave our sides unless we tell them to. (It would of course be different in open country, but I see no reason why we shouldn't have control there too if we build up gradually).
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