plenty of positive trainers deal with what he calls red zone dogs, more often they call them fearful and reactive
and there are plenty picking up the peices and saving red zone dogs who the pack theory trainers have actually made worse by missreading the reason for the dogs behaviour

I am confused as to whether you are for or against Cesar Millan? This could be a quote straight from his book especially the bit about manners, its exactly what he preaches?

I had a 'red zone' dog.
We couldn't even walk down the road and see another dog. She would go totally mental, and not even my 16 stone OH could hold her, she was that intent on killing the dog on the other side of the road.

With positive reinforcement, and good experiences with other dogs, she now happily walks next to other dogs, with no muzzle on, and no reaction.

I didn't once have to use a choke chain, or a prong collar, or an electric collar, or alpha roll her, or kick her up the **** to make her walk nicely.

Yup! Me too - but with mine it was people. Now with positive training and a lot of patience she`s a normal dog and we have fun together. And I never once had to kick, poke, shock, choke or frighten her.

The theories are based on a mistaken theory involving captive wolves. This was taken to be true of domestic dogs. The original theorist disowned the work but unfortunately it had already been taken up by dog `behaviourists` etc.
A few of these still cling to the theory in spite of more recent research which shows that yes there is a pack structure, but it is flexible and not based on a Breeding Pair (Alpha male and Alpha female only mate).
It is obvious that packs of feral or stray dogs all try to mate when the opportunity arises. It was found that the `leadership` role changed according to the task or situation.
You can observe how this happens in multi-dog households. My GSD bitch thinks it`s up to her to guard. Her mate Shamus `guards` only if she`s out or asleep. The Old dog used to keep the others in order but has now passed that job on to me, shouting at me if the others step on him.

Good manners was not invented by CM. Training a dog to have good manners is an integral part of ALL dog training methods. Where he differs is that he has concocted a weird, almost New Age bunch of stuff to go along with it, involving his `Energies` and his `Dominance` as a way of mystically getting the dog to submit. If that doesn`t work he tries cruelty.

Sorry, I didnt actually say he invented good manners, merely that that what he believes in too!

I admit the use of the word 'energies' is a little 'New Age' but he is only talking about body language & inner self confidence.

Dominance is not a mystical method, its a natural method that dogs understand as its how they learn what is acceptable & not within their packs.

key phrase:

'their packs'

we aren't dogs, we are humans, we dont live in 'their packs'

Try explaining that to a dog!They dont know we are humans & they are dogs they just see it as their pack. So no, we dont live in their packs, they live in ours & seem more than happy to do so.

dunno about you, i dont live in a pack, i live in a family.

mind you, couldnt say the same for some of the guests on the jeremy kyle show.

i think dogs are clever enough to realise we arent dogs, dont look like dogs, dont smell like dogs (key point), and dont behave like dogs.
so, no, they dont 'think' we live in their 'dog pack' anymore they would 'think' the pet rabbit, horse, or TV does.