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labradork
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20-05-2009, 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by Ramble View Post
I cannot believe that anyone in this day and age actually likes this stuff..approves of this stuff, or would even consider using any of this stuff.

I am totally shocked to be honest by some of the postings on here. Really sad.

So much cruelty masquerading as training. Makes me so mad.
Frawley makes Cesar Millan look like Mother Theresa.
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Promethean
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20-05-2009, 06:38 PM
Originally Posted by labradork View Post
Frawley makes Cesar Millan look like Mother Theresa.
Frawley is weird - I don't think he really knows what he believes. His methods are a strange and often incompatible pastiche of old time yank and jerk with some new operant methods.


Like MIllan he loves to talk about dominance and being alpha, and as we've read he believes in a forceful (brutal) methods to address dominant dogs, he also writes that the alpha pin is stupid and those that promoted should be shot.
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kcjack
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20-05-2009, 08:23 PM
I would use a collar like this as a last resort before PTS.
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Wysiwyg
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20-05-2009, 10:06 PM
Originally Posted by kcjack View Post
I would use a collar like this as a last resort before PTS.
If you mean the DDC, it would be illegal. It's different in the US.

To be honest, if you had a dog who was a huge problem the sensible thing would be to ask for help from behaviour counsellors (like the aforementioned Dr Overall) who can help such dogs without the use of brutal force.


Wys
x
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Shona
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20-05-2009, 10:10 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
I loathe this site (sorry eta Not Dogsey ).

I can't express how much. I've seen the most appalling, sickening advice on it.

The collar referred to is one that is used to strangle the dog - until it loses consciousness.

Yes, someone actually does this and actually sells the collars and actually recommends them.

It frankly makes me ***** mad.


Wys
x
DITO.
what wonderful trainers they are, with three correction collars on a dog
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wolfdogowner
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21-05-2009, 05:48 AM
Originally Posted by Promethean View Post
Frawley is weird - I don't think he really knows what he believes. His methods are a strange and often incompatible pastiche of old time yank and jerk with some new operant methods.


Like MIllan he loves to talk about dominance and being alpha, and as we've read he believes in a forceful (brutal) methods to address dominant dogs, he also writes that the alpha pin is stupid and those that promoted should be shot.
He would probably do it himself with his own gun... Much on his site is quite laughable and he loves twisting what people say- still its been a good business for him and made plenty of money.
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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21-05-2009, 09:05 AM
Originally Posted by kcjack View Post
I would use a collar like this as a last resort before PTS.
but what is the last resort?
people often say they have tried everything but in reality that can mean
i have shouted at my dogs lots
i have tried lots of different methods but gave each one up after a short while and confused the dog
i havent tried a behavourist
i have tried one behavourist

most people when they say they have tried everything really havent but they want a quick fix cos tv makes it look like problems can be sorted in 30mins
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Moobli
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21-05-2009, 04:24 PM
Originally Posted by labradork View Post
There is indeed, sadly.

Most people cannot deal with truly handler aggressive dogs that truly want to attack their owner with the intent of challenging the owner for rank within their family pack. I can tell you what I do but I will insert a word of caution by saying that you should not try this at home unless you are working with a professional dog trainer who really understands this work. I also don't do this on a dog that has not spent weeks going through the pack structure program.

I will set a dog up by putting a hidden sleeve on. Then I will have a second handler there for back-up and for safety. I will have a line over a tree limb with the line hanging down near the level of my knee.

I heel the dog to this location and attach the line to the dominant dog collar. At that point I will do something that causes the dog to attack me. When he does I offer the arm with the hidden sleeve. When the dog is biting the arm the second handler will raise the dogs 4 feet off the ground. I remain totally calm and look the dog in the eye and tell him he will not bite me.

The dog stays there until he passes out. Then he is lowered to the ground and lies there until he regains consciousness. Then we start again. Usually these kind of dogs will only have to be hung 2 or 3 times and they quickly learn that you are a big person - the way they look at it is that you have the power to kill them at any time.
This is a big big point in establishing dominance with dogs like this.


http://leerburg.com/746.htm

The rantings of a madman and animal abuser as far as I am concerned.
I could never condone anything as awful as that. I am sure he is talking about dogs that are more akin to tigers on a lead, but using such brutal methods is simply downright cruelty
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Moobli
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21-05-2009, 04:28 PM
Originally Posted by Ramble View Post
I cannot believe that anyone in this day and age actually likes this stuff..approves of this stuff, or would even consider using any of this stuff.

I am totally shocked to be honest by some of the postings on here. Really sad.

So much cruelty masquerading as training. Makes me so mad.
I would never approve of or consider using many of the methods that are advocated on the Leerburg website, however, from watching a number of his dvds, I would say (at grass roots level) he talks a lot of sense. However, ecollars, prongs etc should be reserved for people experienced in their use and only used when absolutely necessary. The key to many training methods is to pick and choose the bits you want to use and bin the rest.
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Moobli
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21-05-2009, 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
but what is the last resort?
people often say they have tried everything but in reality that can mean
i have shouted at my dogs lots
i have tried lots of different methods but gave each one up after a short while and confused the dog
i havent tried a behavourist
i have tried one behavourist

most people when they say they have tried everything really havent but they want a quick fix cos tv makes it look like problems can be sorted in 30mins
Not sure which collar we are discussing? However, I would consider using an ecollar as a last resort to stop a dog that was a sheep chaser and a worrier. Having owned such a dog, I know that conventional methods just don't work with a persistent chaser. For the record, I never did use an ecollar on her, but if I were to have such a dog again, I would consider using one with experienced help.
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