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Patch
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05-06-2008, 12:43 AM
Diet : Canned foods states low protein on the can however the intake protein is usually higher than complete dry food.

I`m a vegetarian, my dogs eat complete dry,[ not vegetarian ],I avoid crap foods with colourings and additives etc, and would never ever feed Eukanuba / Iams on ethical grounds.

Mentality : The alpha schmalpha stuff was de-bunked years ago but unfortunately not everyone has caught up with the flaws in the theory yet [ those such as Milan and Fennel setting things back by years unfortunately ].

My dogs are not challenging me for anything when walking ahead of me through a door, hall, or anywhere else, they are simply going from a to b - they will not take over the world as a result

Physical : A dogs mental activity is as important if not more important than walks of so many minutes a day.Take a collie on a walk for hours and half an hour later he`ll be ready to do it all again. Give his brain something to do for a short spell of training and he`ll sleep like a baby because he is properly satisfied - that is what helps stop a dog being a hyper nutter, not a regimental walk regime.

Also physical, many behavioural issues are down to a problem of physical health, could be anything from a thyroid issue, [ major cause of aggression problems in dogs ], to an allergy,[ including to some foods / contents ], or internal sore spot/problem causing a dog to be anything from aggressive to depressed and all sorts in-between. Do you insist all your clients dogs have a thorough physical examination by a vet first to see if there is a medical cause for a problem first particularly behaviours involving aggression ?


I`m afraid there are some major areas there on which we disagree, [ and so do my dogs - they made me say that ], however your post was very well written nonetheless

Look forward to doing friendly battle with you, [ iow debating but with humour I hope ]
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Steve Wishart
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05-06-2008, 01:33 AM
Originally Posted by Patch View Post
Diet : Canned foods states low protein on the can however the intake protein is usually higher than complete dry food.

I`m a vegetarian, my dogs eat complete dry,[ not vegetarian ],I avoid crap foods with colourings and additives etc, and would never ever feed Eukanuba / Iams on ethical grounds.
Again, everyone has their preference, but seeing as you dismissed Eukanuba on your ethnic grounds (not your dogs, as they don't have any ), I fail to see how you can successfully refute any comment of mine regarding the dogfood.

Even so, as long as your dogs are getting a balanced diet of both meat and vegatables, I again fail to see the disagreement.

Mentality : The alpha schmalpha stuff was de-bunked years ago but unfortunately not everyone has caught up with the flaws in the theory yet [ those such as Milan and Fennel setting things back by years unfortunately ].
Fancy having a go at speaking of these flaws? Or again, prefer to dismiss it as mumbo jumbo and move onto the next point...?

The theory hasn't been de-bunked, it's just been merely brushed under the carpet by owners who would rather believe that their dog is their recently deceased grandad reincarnated (people do still think that), or by those who would much rather spend more time and money to try to use non forceful methods. With enough time, a dog can be taught to do anything, the pack theory is one that has been around for many years and is one that I have yet failed with, after dealing with 200+ different clients.

My dogs are not challenging me for anything when walking ahead of me through a door, hall, or anywhere else, they are simply going from a to b - they will not take over the world as a result
If the dog is closest to the door, then no, he probably isn't challenging you, but if he pushes you out of the way to beat you getting from a to b, then it's something that I would make a note of. However, I don't assume one dominent behaviour from a dog is enough to describe the dog as dominent, other factors would need to be taken into account. As for taking over the world, it's not the first time I have heard someone who disagrees with the approach, exaggerate on this particular part. I never said the single action alone would mean the dog is trying to take over, I suggest you re-read what I initially said.

Physical : A dogs mental activity is as important if not more important than walks of so many minutes a day.Take a collie on a walk for hours and half an hour later he`ll be ready to do it all again. Give his brain something to do for a short spell of training and he`ll sleep like a baby because he is properly satisfied - that is what helps stop a dog being a hyper nutter, not a regimental walk regime.
Again, another exaggeration on my example. I also stated that a dog should be exercised mentally and I did say also that it's just as knackering to a dog as a walk. Even so, there's no sense on your part whatsoever to dismiss the importance of walking a dog, that's almost going into lazy american owner territory right there.

"It's not like he needs to be walked" - Er... yes he does.

Also physical, many behavioural issues are down to a problem of physical health, could be anything from a thyroid issue, [ major cause of aggression problems in dogs ], to an allergy,[ including to some foods / contents ], or internal sore spot/problem causing a dog to be anything from aggressive to depressed and all sorts in-between. Do you insist all your clients dogs have a thorough physical examination by a vet first to see if there is a medical cause for a problem first particularly behaviours involving aggression ?
I think you have overlooked the reason of my thread, maybe even the important parts whereby I said that they were just tips to perhaps follow. I never said it was an exact guide that will work with every dog, it was merely a post that I thought I would share some thoughts on some behavioural matters. There's no denying the importance of vetinary exams in assessing a problem, but seeing as I lack the ability to diagnose dogs on this site with a thorough physical exam, I thought I'd try and offer the next best thing. In terms of wether or not I history take all vetinary records during a consultation, then the answer is yes.

Like I said, the majority of dogs that I consult with, mainly have problems in one of the three areas mentioned, aggressive dogs are never consulted without a muzzle and I have had my latest tetanus jab in case you also wanted to know


I`m afraid there are some major areas there on which we disagree, [ and so do my dogs - they made me say that ], however your post was very well written nonetheless
I have no problems whatsoever with people disagreeing at all, the world would be boring and I would probably be out of a job if we didn't. But try to avoid exaggerating things and then saying that certain things have flaws without providing any examples or facts with regards to those flaws. At least gimme a decent challenge to debate on, instead of making it a bit easy

Hopefully that was just as well written just as you'd hoped
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Azz
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05-06-2008, 03:14 AM
Some excellent posts guys.

I practiced many of the things mentioned in the first post when Rocky was a pup.

Going through doors first (getting him to sit patiently). Giving him toys to play with, but once he's had his play putting the 'bestt away until next play time. Ignoring him when coming home for a bit (was hard that one!). Eating first, getting him to sit before allowing him to go and eat, doing tricks for treats etc. Basically, nothing in life was free, and now I couldn't ask for a nicer, well balanced, good natured and mannered dog.

He still has plenty of freedom, of choice and expression, but the only thing I did was teach him boundaries, and that he should look at me for guidance and when nesc, permission.

I also think keeping your dogs mind active is very important, and your dog needs this to use up all his energy. Kongs are great, as are other toys where the dog has to work out how to get the treats out.

Food is also important, I personally don't like any food (for humans or pets) that contain artificial colours, flavours etc. In fact Rocky gets a lot of what I eat - and you all know how strict I am when it comes to food
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Patch
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05-06-2008, 05:16 AM
Originally Posted by Steve Wishart View Post
Again, everyone has their preference, but seeing as you dismissed Eukanuba on your ethnic grounds (not your dogs, as they don't have any ), I fail to see how you can successfully refute any comment of mine regarding the dogfood.

Even so, as long as your dogs are getting a balanced diet of both meat and vegatables, I again fail to see the disagreement.
Ethical grounds, not ethnic Before the vile Proctor and Gambol bought it out, I used to feed my cats iams [ spit spit ]. Some time later they went off it. Turned out it corresponded with then P&G took it over and changed the contents. At the time I did`nt know about the take over but what they had done clearly made it a poorer food as far as my cats were concerned so I stopped giving it to them.
Knowing after that about P&G getting their nasty hands on it was enough to ensure I would never buy it from that moment on so I have never given and will never give it to my dogs. What they do eat is a very good complete food which I, and more importantly, they, are very happy on because as well as keeping them in great condition, not being full of additives etc, and being a good balanced diet, they also enjoy eating it - bonus


Fancy having a go at speaking of these flaws? Or again, prefer to dismiss it as mumbo jumbo and move onto the next point...?

The theory hasn't been de-bunked, it's just been merely brushed under the carpet by owners who would rather believe that their dog is their recently deceased grandad reincarnated (people do still think that), or by those who would much rather spend more time and money to try to use non forceful methods. With enough time, a dog can be taught to do anything, the pack theory is one that has been around for many years and is one that I have yet failed with, after dealing with 200+ different clients.
Nope, it`s been debunked, including by one of the previously staunchest proponents of it,[ John Fisher ].
Probably easier to give you the link to a thread with lots of opinions on it, [ so not just my opinion, and covers for`s and against`s ]

http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=81037

It does`nt cost me money to use non-forceful methods which are about me earning a dogs respect rather than demanding it,[ respect that is demanded is`nt respect at all anyway, its nothing more than `acceptance` and that is not respect as far as I`m concerned ]. My dogs do not have a pack heirachy between them, as previously outlined, so if they are not going to behave like a wolf pack because they don`t feel the need to between them, [probably because they are dogs, not wolves ], I`m not going to force them to behave like one


If the dog is closest to the door, then no, he probably isn't challenging you, but if he pushes you out of the way to beat you getting from a to b, then it's something that I would make a note of.
You can make a note of it if you like but its not an issue for me or my dogs ta

However, I don't assume one dominent behaviour from a dog is enough to describe the dog as dominent, other factors would need to be taken into account.
I don`t assume behaviours are dominant anyway, a truly dominant dog is a rarity.Dominance theory is so misunderstood by most of the people who preach it that its pretty frightening.

As for taking over the world, it's not the first time I have heard someone who disagrees with the approach, exaggerate on this particular part. I never said the single action alone would mean the dog is trying to take over, I suggest you re-read what I initially said.
Your notion that a human could be an alpha over a dog is as silly to me as my comment about world take over is to you



Again, another exaggeration on my example. I also stated that a dog should be exercised mentally and I did say also that it's just as knackering to a dog as a walk. Even so, there's no sense on your part whatsoever to dismiss the importance of walking a dog, that's almost going into lazy american owner territory right there.

"It's not like he needs to be walked" - Er... yes he does.
Whoa there, I did`nt say dogs don`t need exercise. I teach Agility, I have a reasonable understanding of the need for a dog to be fit and healthy but having a fit dog which can`t use his or her brain will potentially lead to as much in the way of behavioural issues as a dog which does`nt get enough physical exercise for his or her individual needs.

I said mental stimulations is as important if not more important for a dogs wellbeing, and a regimented ` walk a dog this many times a day for this number of minutes` won`t make as much difference as mental work toward helping a dogs behaviour.


I think you have overlooked the reason of my thread, maybe even the important parts whereby I said that they were just tips to perhaps follow. I never said it was an exact guide that will work with every dog, it was merely a post that I thought I would share some thoughts on some behavioural matters.
I thought you were also inviting discussion on those points

There's no denying the importance of vetinary exams in assessing a problem, but seeing as I lack the ability to diagnose dogs on this site with a thorough physical exam, I thought I'd try and offer the next best thing.
You will see in lots of threads on behavioural problems that posters are asked if their vet has done a thorough check in case of a medical cause - once anything medical has been ruled out then its time to look at the behavioural - otherwise suggestions are just management.

In terms of wether or not I history take all vetinary records during a consultation, then the answer is yes.
That`s good to hear, but what if those records don`t include a thyroid panel for an aggressive dog ? That is one of the most basic first steps which should be done.


Like I said, the majority of dogs that I consult with, mainly have problems in one of the three areas mentioned, aggressive dogs are never consulted without a muzzle and I have had my latest tetanus jab in case you also wanted to know
I haven`t had my latest tetanus, I`m needlephobic - but I think it`s more than just luck that unlike Mr Milan, I have`nt been bitten by any of the dogs I`ve worked with over the years, [ mostly severely abused often aggressive dogs ].



I have no problems whatsoever with people disagreeing at all, the world would be boring and I would probably be out of a job if we didn't. But try to avoid exaggerating things and then saying that certain things have flaws without providing any examples or facts with regards to those flaws. At least gimme a decent challenge to debate on, instead of making it a bit easy
Not exaggeration, just humour - you`ll get used to me
There are many threads about the debunked dominance alpha schmalpha theory, you`ll find plenty of examples in them

Hopefully that was just as well written just as you'd hoped
Don`t agree with some of your take on dogs but I like your style of debate so far, so not a bad start I reckon

PS, none of my dogs are called Fluffy, it would`nt suit any of them at all
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youngstevie
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05-06-2008, 06:12 AM
Originally Posted by hectorsmum View Post
yes parts are good, but i dont agree one size fits all.

each breed needs different levels of training at different speeds. the same with exercise.

food is contentious and needs to suit the dog.
A well written answer.............couldn't of put it better mysel
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Stephanie
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05-06-2008, 12:03 PM
Hi

I agree with some of what you have posted, some I dont. I am a huge beliver/fan of NILIF (nothing in life is free) - having a rather dominat male rescue rottie, NILIF has been my life saver and my dogs tbh.

I do agree with your 3 points: Diet, Mentality and Physical but at the end of your initial post you say that if after trying/changign the above (diet/mentality/physical) and your dog was still having problems then you would see advice of a behaviourist - surely a trip to the vets for a complete check over and to make sure there are no underlying problems would be a good point of call before calling a behaviourist - if I was called the first part of my conversation would be to ask if there are any health problems with the dog and has it had a recent check up - just my opinion!
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Evie
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05-06-2008, 12:20 PM
Diet
Dogs are omnivorous

They are carnivores.
I do agree about the raw meat only diet being wrong for dogs though. They also need edible bone and organs.

I didn't bother reading the rest of the post, sorry.
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Shona
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05-06-2008, 12:29 PM
I have to say,,, yes the three things in this thread / food/ stimulation/ exercise cause many bad habbits that lead on to behavioural issues, but so many true behavioural issues are obtained from life experiance of the dog, third party problems,, eg, a firework went off behind my dog its now terrified to go out or of bangs, etc,
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Steve Wishart
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05-06-2008, 12:30 PM
Originally Posted by Evie View Post

They are carnivores.
I do agree about the raw meat only diet being wrong for dogs though. They also need edible bone and organs.

I didn't bother reading the rest of the post, sorry.
Dogs can eat both meat and vegatables, but diet on one or the other, is unhealthy for the dog. The diet needs to be balanced properly for the dog.

They are evolved scavangers, they lived off our scraps for thousands of years, which contained both meat and vegatables.

Dogs are opportunist eaters, they'll strip a carcass of the fur, the skin, the meat, the organs, the stomach and everything in it and the bones. They need a balanced diet of Protein, Carbohydrates, Fibre, Fat, Minerals and Vitamins. So, I completely disagree that dogs are just carnivores.
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Evie
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05-06-2008, 12:35 PM
We'll just agree to disagree on this one, Steve.
You may find these of interest;
http://rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html
http://rawfed.com/myths/stomachcontents.html
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