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Fliggle
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27-03-2008, 02:05 PM
They are so handsome
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Anne-Marie
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27-03-2008, 06:16 PM
WOWEEE, he is absolutely gorgeous, definately my type of Dobie, lucky you!!

It's interesting about them having to have a working test to have the full champ title, I think that's a great idea
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Ripsnorterthe2nd
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27-03-2008, 07:21 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
Many English bred Dobes lack strength of muzzle, and have weak underjaws. Round eyes are also a problem. Continental bred Dobes excel in head.
And doesn't it show though?! I just find it amazing that you can have a breed standard for a dog (includes many breeds, sadly, not just Dobes) and be able to have two completely different looking heads!

Originally Posted by Bilclarie View Post
I will try to answer your question!!!!!

Firstly unlike England, in most of Europe dogs of all breeds have to go through a fit for breeding test with a breed judge so if you have a good dog it will pass, now when you by a pedigree dog (LOF) in France you are only given a peddigree provisionare which basically means you can't do anything with the dog until you have had a confirmation test done, once your dog has passed its confirmation test the judge fills in the back of the peddigree and it gets sent of with the dogs critique and the judges score,when your peddigree comes back it's a different peddigree and has been offically stamped by the kennel club, now in England if you have a registered dog regardless of it's type health and condition you can breed from and register the litter, that probably answers your question!!!!!! now those dogs that have been bred may not in the eyes of a breed judge be fit for breeding but hey what does that matter!!!!!!!!!!To gain a French champions tittle a Dobermann for example will have to go through a working test and pass and also to become a show champion as you have to have both to hold the tittle of French champion, they will also need to have an excellent hip score. Also in France (I'm staying with France as thats where I live) you can own as many males as you like, but you pay a tax per breeding age female and per litter so theres no point in breeding inferior dogs because you don't make any money the tax man takes 50% of what you earn here, depending on the department you live in as to how much you pay per female a year it can be anything from 300euros per female per year, I know a breeder who lives in Paris and he pay's 1000euros per year per female, so you have to do the job of breeding properly,So because people are breeding willy nilly shall we say in England any dog is being bred from hence poor heads etc etc etc etc because to them a Dobe is a Dobe, only responsable breeders are doing right by this breed, so you have a passable dog put to a reasonable dog it has 10 puppys and if your lucky you may get 1 or 2 that are what they should be, so they go on to enter shows etc then there bred from and again you may have 10 puppys and 2/3 may be good, so it has a knock on affect to the breed, and because there are no rules re breeding people are breeding poor quality dogs which in turn are being bred from, so you are loosing what the Dobe is suppose to be and thats where your difference comes in, lots of UK breeders are now using Euro dogs to get the strength of head jaw body etc back into the UK Dobes, only joe bloggs who don't give a flying **** and only see's pound signs will continue to breed from sub standard stock again this is just my opinion.
I have seen a lot of English show dogs made up to UK champions and my thoughts are, I best get my youngest male there because if they can become UK champions I'm pretty sure he could Raven with Merlin at 10months old





Sorry for going on a bit
Mo and the Gang xx
Thanks for that, sounds like our KC has a lot to learn, but then we all know that don't we!

I agree about the working tests, I know that in France English Springers have to gain a certain percentage in a field trial before it can be made up to a champion, shame we don't do that here! I really and truely can only see such a measure improving a breed!

Just a couple of other questions (sorry admin know I'm way off topic, not sure if the thread should be split?).

What is the working test that they have to pass?

What are the temperaments like in Euro Dobes? And do they have as many health problems as the English ones seem to (from what I've heard)?
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Bilclarie
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27-03-2008, 08:16 PM
The test is called Tan/Tat very simular to schutzhund it includes obedience, man work (protection/attack) and tracking, and a charactor test working a crowd etc.
As for them being healthier I can't answer that one all I can say is there is health testing of hips before you can breed, it pays breeders to health test there dogs because here in france if you sell an (LOF) Puppy, it means it should be able to be confirmed at 15 months old and get a pass, now if it doesn't you can demand half your money back from the breeder or a replacement puppy.

Mo and the Gang xx
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Ripsnorterthe2nd
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27-03-2008, 08:18 PM
Originally Posted by Bilclarie View Post
The test is called Tan/Tat very simular to schutzhund it includes obedience, man work (protection/attack) and tracking, and a charactor test working a crowd etc.
As for them being healthier I can't answer that one all I can say is there is health testing of hips before you can breed, it pays breeders to health test there dogs because here in france if you sell an (LOF) it means it should be able to be confirmed at 15 months old and get a pass, now if it doesn't you can demand half your money back from the breeder or a replacement puppy.

Mo and the Gang xx
Very interesting, thanks.
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fluffybunnyfeet
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27-03-2008, 09:57 PM
I am going to be a very bad boy here but.......

Why has it been butchered? and its undershot, eyes are too round and if its a euro dog likely too tall but judges seem to skim over this point.

Hate docked dobes and ear cropping is just plain bloodly cruel.
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Bilclarie
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28-03-2008, 07:13 AM
Originally Posted by fluffybunnyfeet View Post
I am going to be a very bad boy here but.......

Why has it been butchered? and its undershot, eyes are too round and if its a euro dog likely too tall but judges seem to skim over this point.

Hate docked dobes and ear cropping is just plain bloodly cruel.

Well as I am the owner of Merlin I will respond to you

1st Merlin is not under or over shot he has a perfect bite, he has 42 teeth which is the correct amount of teeth there also nice and clean, and that is a must here in Europe I thought I would mention that as you seem to know very little about mouths, if you had taken time to read the origanal comments on confirmation you would have worked that one out for yourself!!! he was given an excellent 1 for confirmation which is the highest a dog can be given, so your wrong.

2nd Merlin is a good standard size dog not all euro dogs are over sized Merlin is 72cm and weighs 43 kilos so wrong again.

3rdly Merlin is fully health tested he is VWD clear by DNA testing,PHPV free,DCM clear at time of testing oh and his HD score is A+ which is the equivilent to 0-0
not many UK dobes can say all that and have the paper work to back it up.

Yes I'm also pro docking and would have a cropped docked dog over a natural earded tailed dog anyday, most of europe has stop cropping for quite a few years now, its only the odd few that still do it, Merlin and his sister Tasha where cropped before the ban came in to force so they where done legally,docking is still legal here in France.

Quote
"Cropped ears and docked tail and he/she has the nerve to come on and ask to critic their dog, they will have asking whether Citroens are good cars next OH
LA la"

Well its a dog forum and I'm a member who owns dogs so with admins permission I can come on here and use there facilitys as long as I stick to the rules just like you and all the other members, if you don't want to look at my dog then don't it's called choice we all have it, op's sorry you don't you have to have a natural dog don't you silly me.

I haven't found your comments rude as with everyone we are all intitaled to an opinion and thats yours but I do find you just a tad stupid, you have the cheek to insult my dog.
Regardless of his ears and tail your saying his mouth isn't correct well it is so is is height weight gait croupe pasterns etc etc need I go on.The word T**t comes to mind you obviously don't know as much as you think you do.

Mo and the Gang cropped and not xx
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Mahooli
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28-03-2008, 07:59 AM
I have to say, even though I am very against docking and cropping, I think he is stunning although I really don't like the ears I think they are ugly. But overall I think he's a cracking dog and far superior to many UK Dobes.
Not sure where the comment about being undershot came from as he clearly isn't.
Shame about the lack of chest markings but a good dog can't be a bad colour
Becky
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Petticoat
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28-03-2008, 08:56 AM
I must admit I am against docking and cropping too, but he is a magnificent looking boy... I love Dobes and hope to have one one day
P.S Love his name too
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Colin
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28-03-2008, 10:19 AM
Hi Mo,

Well having owned over 35 Dobes myself in the last 30 past years as I only rescue them, plus they have being a part of my family all my life as my Dad had one before I was born, this is what I think about Merlin from my 49 years experience with dobes.

Firstly I am going to split my reply into two sections, as I neither wish to offend you or start a big debate on this thread, so I will only deal with the good areas in the top half.

The good bits:

He has a great blunt wedge and that the upper part of his head is flat and is free from wrinkles, the top of his skull is flat, and that his nose is a solid black, and his eyes are a nice almond shape and not to far set back.

It looks like he has a good set of teeth, but his lower jaw looks very slightly undershot, but that could just be the photo.

His shoulder blade and upper arms seem to meet at a good angle and he has a good top line. He has a nice deep and broad fore chest, but his costal arch doesn't seem to have as much definition in it as I would like. Also his coat looks very patchy in colour and he has a good weight on him.

Now for what I really don't like:


I absolutely hate the fact that his ears have been cropped and that either you or the breeder had put him through all that totally unnecessary pain at the age of between 7-10 weeks. Why would anyone put their puppy through a major operation and then once the stitches have been removed have their ears taped in a wire rack until the muscles and cartilage of the ears has healed enough to stand on their own? And all for vanity (yours not his). It's an absolutely pointless procedure and is of no benefit to the dog what so ever.

Colin
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