dominance training, advice please

I have just returned from Willow's 4th puppy training class. One of her litter mates also attends and they have been getting on well. However today in the socialisation session she became much more aggressive, very vocal and the trainer asked me to get her to one side. She is dominant with all the dogs, very confident whatever their size or breed in the class.

She explained that it is not a huge problem, and that many dogs try their arm at this age, but that I did need to recognise it and deal with it. She suggested the dominance technique, ie pinning her down on her back until she calms.

I remember some posts about this and the mixed feelings. I do not want Willow to be aggressive however I don't want to knock her confidence. Any advice please?

Also, she is mouthing quite a lot and last night while she was playing she jumped up and 'bit' my nose. It didn't hurt but it was a bit of a shock. Thanks J.

Its called an Alpha roll and is absolutely without doubt one of the most dangerous things to do to a dog. Any trainer advocating it, I would run from as fast as I could, seriously. There is a particular mindset who uses this stupid method which carries over in to other training and is asking for trouble.

A *good* trainer will teach understanding and *mutual* respect between dog and handler, not this out dated dominance rubbish which is a cause of increased aggression, mistrust, and puts up a wall where dog and handler can`t bond fully.

If any so called trainer tried getting me to do it to one of my crew, its the trainer who would find themself being Alpha Rolled while being given a `calm` explanation of why not to do it to a dog...

The trainer would fight back at first, then would give up, probably exhausted from struggling, but like many dogs, you can bet after ward, either straight away or some time later, the first chance they got they would try to take me out when I was not ready for it.
A human would use their fists or feet, a dog would use teeth...

The concept comes from a bitch doing it to pups but many humans using it fail to understand its not done as an aggressive thing. When humans try to mimic it, to the dog its an aggressive challenge, some will lose trust in you for it, others will literally come back and bite their owner on the a**.

Are there other clubs you can go to ? I would be seriously concerned about anyone going to a dominance trainer who is so outdated and clueless on the dangers of this technique.

Hi Katrina I can only give you my personal opinion, others may not agree.

Firstly I don't subscribe to the dominance theory and am quite shocked that your trainer has suggested pinning your puppy down that is a very good way to make her very aggressive.

I hesitate to post at all because my views conflict with those of your trainer. I think Wlilow is being a normal puppy, regarding the barking I would teach her to 'shush' on command. Puppy's together learn how to behave from reading each others body language and should be given the opportunity to explore each other, that is what puppy classes are for and again I don't quite understand your trainers advice to take your puppy to one side. I would certainly be looking for another class.
Mouthing and play biting is also normal behaviour in puppies, if a puppy doesn't bite there is something wrong with it . Puppies bite for a number of reasons, to explore the world around them/during play and when teething.

Biting is best curbed and channelled in the right direction when the puppy is small, they should be encouraged to bite ever more gently until no pressure is exerted at all . It has ben found that the best way to do this is to teach 'bite inhibition' so that as the puppy grows up and develops powerful jaws, if it should bite for any reason (when in pain/at the vets being treated /gets accidentally hurt) it will have been taught never to sink its teeth into human skin.


Teaching a puppy bite inhibition takes time and patience and won't be achieved in just a few days also everyone in the household needs to adopt the same approach.

Link to teaching bite inhibition ..click here

Here is an article on basic puppy training by Shadowboxer,
if you need to know how to teach 'shush ' please ask
http://www.dogsey.com/dog-articles.php?t=14526

Patch was posting at the same time as me and I echo her words I took longer to post while trying to curb my anger and choose my words with care...

I actually feel quite sick at the though of taking that delightfully little puppy and using the Alpha Roll on it ..I can't believe trainers from the dark ages are still using this method

Thank you very much Minihaha for yet another very informative post. I am sure this will be of great help to many of us.

Thank you. I suspected as much and didn't subscribe to her response (the trainer's) with much enthusiasm. The last thing Willow and I need is for our growing bond to be broken, so I will finish this puppy course, as the general training is pretty good and there is nothing else I have any concerns about, but I will not take her advice on board on this particular issue.

If she attempts to try this particular 'theory' on Willow I'll refuse of course.

These sessions are the Kennel Club Puppy Good Citizen course. As a new puppy owner I am disappointed that even their courses/trainers are giving advice that is inappropriate.

Hi Katrina

can only agree with what others have said, run for your life and find another trainer! I have been told that deef is dominant, apparently so is sol it would seem that this is a description applied to any dog that is confident, outgoing and bold. Never really believed in it myself. All mine sleep on the furniture and on the bed and eat first and go out the door first etc etc which apparently is a bad thing yet they are all happy and get on really well. I would never use such a thing as an alpha roll on my dogs or suggest it to anyone else. Unfortunately I do know people that use it as a training method and their dogs in fact lack confidence. You can work with a dog that is confident and has trust in you. Deef was the only one of mine that was "mouthy" as a pup, he learned very quickly that it was not accpetable without having to be pinned down and as for barking at other dogs.... he still does this in excitement but never at nervous dogs so he obviously knows the difference. He will be quiet on command and learned this really quickly at a fairly early age (about 3 months I think). Often dogs barking at another especially in a puppy class is mistaken for aggression when it isn't, a good trainer would pick up on it

Confident, outgoing and bold is what describes my Willow exactly She is a wonderful dog, a bit boisterous but very loving and she watches my every move. I think the intermediate level trainer is a different one, I'll have a chat to him/her first to check out their views before I sign up (and pay for!!) the course.

Agree, forget the word dominance, think confident, just channel her into the sort of behaviour that is acceptable. Far more bites on both dogs and people are inflicted by dogs that are either scared or unsure of what their response should be. Continue training, continue socialising all you need to do is make sure she understands when she oversteps the mark. Oh! And think about changing your trainer.

Hi i am doing the Kennel Club Puppy Good Citizen course as well but at canterbury and there are a few domanent dogs there and not once has our trainer said to do this, i have 3 weeks left till passout time and enjoying very much as you prob are the advice given above is spot on good luck with the rest of class let us all now how you do.