Predatory chase drive solutions?

Hi All

My mind is a bit boggled...Poppy is pretty much the perfect pooch... but our only really issue to work on together is her chase drive.

Basically she will chase small furries, birds, very fast running dogs, and although she has never been given the opportunity to do so, she shows extreme interest in chasing running children, livestock. She is not interested in chasing bikes, joggers or cars though. She has killed 1 mouse and 2 birds via chasing before. If she is on a group walk, she doesn't chase the dogs she is with, but if she saw a strange dog in the distance running, or is at agility training and spots a dog running a different course she would want to chase it.

I've been looking up different ways of working through this.

I have tried always carrying a squeaky ball, as she is ball obsessed, and when she sees something of interest to chase, squeaking the ball and throwing it in the other direction.. she will run after it, but then, rather than retrieve to me like normal, then drops the ball and bolts after whatever she wants to chase.

So i tried carrying a tuggy, and when she notices something to chase, squeaking a squeaker and running the other way excitedly with my tugger to get her to chase me and then play a game of tug...which wored well for a while but i must admit now she usually runs to me for a quick tug, and then bolts back to try and chase whatever she wants to chase.

I should mention that both ball throwing and tugging have been reserved for recall rewards and not used at any other time (apart from at agility training, when she gets to tug for a reward).

Tbh with the ball, the recall usually fails as she catches it and runs away, with the tugger it is successful sometimes and then not other times. I'm lucky as she is dopey so if she runs after another dog that is chasing she only gives it kisses when she reaches it, but obvioulsy it is not acceptable for her to chase innocent unsuspecting dogs, and I worry that she will chase a bird out of the park or chase a dog that is aggressive. I have her on a long line at the moment to stop her getting the self fullfilling reward of chasing.

But i decided to look up online to see what the experts suggest for chase recall, as I feel like we are not really progressing, and i would like to compete with her at agility (or try anyway) and don't want to worry about her running out of the ring to chase something and causing upset and disruption for others.

I'm confused which is the best approach... I've been reading about David Ryan and John Rogerson but confused which approach would be the best, I've also been trying ton incorporate BAT into my chase training but I'm not sure if that is the wrong approach to take... I'm really confused!

Has anyone got any tips or success stories on dealing with a chase drive?

I'd love some help lol

Claire xx

The thing about using toy rewards to satisfy the prey drives or to teach recall is that the training needs to be done solidly first. (IMO)
Every time the dog is allowed to beggar off she learns that the command is optional.
So I`d start from scratch with training and keep the dog on a line when out until the recall is ensured.
If you whistle train or use a different command it would be best, as she`s learned the other one isn`t important.
Ideally you whistle-train your dog so they obey almost automatically. When you feed the dog, whistle. When the dog comes to you, whistle. Treat / whistle when the dog is beside you. And do it in different environments.
I`m speaking as one who has a reactive GSD and a gundog, so I do understand the problem.
Try more games at intervals when out with her - hide her toy and encourage her to find it. Then reward and take the toy back. This will encourage her to stay closer.

Thank you for your reply... i haven't done any whistle work with Poppy before so that's a new one i could try with her

What I get confused with is the different perspectives on the approach:

Some people say redirect the chase instinct onto a controllable outlet (I think David Ryan is suggesting this?)

Some people say its a recall issue and the solidify your recall ( think is along the John Rogerson appoach?)

Some people say it is a self control issue to to proof 'leave it' command with easy challanges before gradually buidling up stimulus (This was what i gleamed from reading Control Unleashed)

Some people say that all chasing must stop, including ball throwing...

I just feel so confused as to which is the right approach for Poppy and I to work on this with

At the end of the day i am prob over thinking it... out of all the problems to have this is a very manageable one lol...and it's not too bad i.e she was able to run a small agility course off lead yesterday while a different dog was running a small course at the opposite end of the field with no problems. But it's still something i would like to work on... there just seems so many different approaches... how do you choose?
xxx

I see she is a X breed, do you know her cross ? (Some breeds respond to different methods)
I've always rewarded just for a glance in my direction (without distractions) starting by throwing a treat & moving on to calling to me & treating, throwing a ball or just a "yes".
Then I moved on to doing it at a distance around distractions (of course you can't avoid natural ones).
My youngest now sees something & looks at me straight away.
If her "buzz" is the chase , without any nipping, growling etc, you can provide that stimulation. So YOU are providing what she needs & she doesn't need to look elsewhere.

She is a staff x lab we think, but there may also be a bit of EBT in her as she has big pointy ears lol (she is in my avatar piccie)

Her buzz does seem to be the chase, she ADORES it! She has killed 2 birds and a mouse before after catching them, but with fast moving dogs or screeching running kids as soon as she has reached them she loses interest, there's no nipping or growling, just a game of chase

Unfortunately for a very few dogs, you cannot redirect the prey drive onto toys.

Generally speaking these are dogs which have a history of success.

You have to understand that the chase releases loads of endorphins and thus ANY chasing ANYTHING inappropriate can create "adrenaline junkies" very quickly.

If, in their youth this is not correctly identified, controlled and redirected it can be virtually impossible to offer such dogs ANYTHING more reinforcing than that which they have rehearsed and practised so well!

(Especially if they have hunted, caught and killed prey)

Fortunately these dogs are few and far between, but they do exist. Many owners THINK they have such a dog but few have in reality (IME).

If it were me I would do what I do with all dogs ie a mixture of all three of what you have identified.

1 Redirect the chase onto something else, you may need to experiment to find something that is exciting enough to replicate the erratic movement of prey.

2 Make recalls an non elective exercise

3 Teach a very strong "leave" increasing the variables gradually

For all of the above it is ESSENTIAL that you enlist the help of somebody else so that SUCCESS is impossible for the dog except when chasing, leaving and recalling as required.

So you may wish to rope in an experienced handler or a 1:1 trainer to begin with who has a solid background in understanding the foundations of all of the above and who can give you exercises to work on in a progressive fashion.

Using the same techniques we use to raise prey drive in protection dogs will be very helpful (appears to be counter intuitive but trust me works)

See here

http://www.learningaboutdogs.com/aca...hippitdvd.html

HTH

Thank you for the advice... that seems like a good way forwards, working on recall, redirection and the 'leave it'... covers all bases then

I had been thinking about enlisting the help of someone on this, but can't seem to find anyone local who has experience with high chase drive... fancy movin to Liverpool to help me out Smokybear

I think the point you made about the success of the kill reads true... the dog warden picked her and her litter mate up as strays from a park, where they were chasing birds apparently!

I will read up on proofing her recall (possibly using a whistle as a 'new command'), walking her on her longline so she can't fail? I'll work on her 'leave it' command, which is really good in the house and garden and where her toys are related, but could def do with improvement out of the house, and def get the DVD you suggested... that looks very interesting and will be ordered today!

Do you think the 'Look at That' game from Control Unleashed could also help as a way of practising self control around triggers or is that asking too much for a dog of her drive?

Thanks again, you've all helped so much xxx

Why can’t I get a reliable recall? ‘

Come’ is no harder to train than any other behaviour but in real life it has a huge number of criteria that have to be raised one at a time in order to guarantee success.

Often when puppies are brought home to their new owners this is the first time they have ever been separated from their dam and siblings and so they naturally attach themselves to their new family by following them about everywhere. Owners find this quite attractive and wrongly assume that this trait will continue into adolescence/adulthood, whatever the circumstances. A dangerous trap to fall into…

At some point in time, usually from around 6 – 10 months, depending on the individual, “Velcro” dog will morph into “Bog off” dog (this is especially true of a breed that has been developed to exhibit a high degree of initiative).

This is the time when owners suddenly realize that their dog will not recall when it sees another dog/person etc. Not only is this inconvenient but potentially dangerous as the dog could be at risk of injury from a car/train/another dog etc.

How and when do I start with a puppy?

My advice is to prepare for this inevitability from the day you take your puppy home. If you are lucky the breeder will have started this process whilst still in the nest by conditioning the puppies to a whistle blown immediately before putting the food bowl down during weaning.

Dogs learn by cause and effect ie sound of whistle = food. If you, the new owner, continue this from the moment your puppy arrives you will lay down strong foundations for the future.

By using the whistle in association with meals/food you need to establish the following criteria:
• Come from across the room.
• Come from out of sight
• Come no matter who calls
• Come even if you are busy doing something else
• Come even if you are asleep.
• Come even if you are playing with something/someone else
• Come even if you are eating

Once this goal has been realized in the house, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the garden.

Once this goal has been realized in the garden, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the park/field etc.

To train this, or any other behaviour:

1. Make it easy for the dog to get it right
2. Provide sufficient reward

Do not expect a dog to come away from distractions in the park until you have trained it to come to you in the park when no diversions are around. Be realistic and manage your expectations; your sphere of influence/control over your dog may be only 20m to begin with, therefore do not hazard a guess that the dog, at this level of training, will successfully recall from 50m or more away. Distance, like every other criterion, must be built up over time.

Some simple rules to follow when training the recall:

• Whistle/signal/call only once (why train the dog to deliberately ignore your first command?)
• Do not reinforce slow responses for the dog coming eventually after it has cocked its leg, sniffed the tree etc (you get what you train!)
• If you know that the dog will not come back to you in a certain situation, go and get him rather than risk teaching him that he can ignore you. (If you have followed the programme correctly you will never put your dog in a position to fail).
• Practise recalling the dog, putting him on the lead for a few seconds, reinforce with food/toy etc and immediately release the dog. Do this several times during a walk etc so that the dog does not associate a recall with going on the lead and ending the walk or being put on the lead with the cessation of fun.
• Eventually, when the behaviour is very strong, alternate rewards ie verbal praise, physical praise, food, toy and also vary the “value” of the rewards, sometimes a plain piece of biscuit, sometimes a piece of cooked liver etc so that you become a walking slot machine (and we all know how addictive gambling can be)!

In my experience recall training should be consistent and relentless for the first two years of a dog’s life before it can be considered truly dependable. You should look on it as a series of incremental steps, rather than a single simple behaviour, and something that will require lifelong maintenance.

What about an older or rescue dog?

Follow the same programme as outlined above however for recalcitrant dogs that have received little or no training, I would recommend dispensing with the food bowl and feeding a dog only during recalls to establish a strong behaviour quickly.

Your training should be over several sessions a day, which means you can avoid the risk of bloat. It is essential that the dog learns that there will be consequences for failure as well as success.

Divide the day’s food ration up into small bags (between10 – 30), if the dog recalls first time, it gets food, if it does not, you can make a big show of saying “too bad” and disposing of that portion of food (either throw it away or put aside for the next day).

Again, raise the criteria slowly as outlined in puppy training.

Hunger is very motivating!

For those of you who believe it unfair/unhealthy to deprive a dog of its full daily ration, not having a reliable recall is potentially life threatening for the dog ……………

How do I stop my dog chasing joggers/cyclists/skateboarders/rabbits/deer?

Chasing something that is moving is a management issue. Do not put your dog in a position where it can make a mistake. Again you need to start training from a pup but if you have already allowed your dog to learn and practise this behaviour you may need to rely on a trailing line until your dog is desensitised to these distractions and knows that listening to you results in a great reinforcement. Chasing is a behaviour much better never learned as it is naturally reinforcing to the dog, which makes it hard for you to offer a better reinforcement. If you want to have a bombproof recall while your dog is running away from you then use the following approach:

Your goal is to train so that your dog is totally used to running away from you at top speed, and then turning on a sixpence to run toward you when you give the recall cue.

You need to set up the training situation so that you have total control over the triggers. For this you will need to gain the co-operation of a helper. If you have a toy crazy dog you can practice this exercise by throwing a toy away from the dog towards someone standing 30 or 40 feet away. At the instant the toy is thrown, recall your dog! If the dog turns toward you, back up several steps quickly, creating even more distance between the you and the toy and then throw another toy in the opposite direction (same value as one thrown)..

If the dog ignores you and continues toward the thrown object, your “helper” simply picks the ball up and ignores dog. When dog eventually returns (which it will because it’s getting no reinforcement from anyone or anything), praise only. Pretty soon the dog will start to respond to a recall off a thrown toy. You will need to mix in occasions the toy is thrown and the dog is allowed to get it ie you do NOT recall if you want to make sure it does not lose enthusiasm for retrieving.

For the food obsessed dog, you can get your helper to wave a food bowl with something the dog loves in it and then recall the dog as soon as you let it go to run towards the food; again if the dog ignores you and continues to the food, your helper simply ensures the dog cannot access the food and start again. (It is extremely important that the helper does not use your dog’s name to call it for obvious reasons).

Gradually increase the difficulty of the recall by letting the dog get closer and closer to the toy/food. Praise the moment the dog turns away from the toy/food in the
early stages of training. Don't wait until the dog returns to you; the dog must have instant feedback.

Once the dog is fluent at switching directions in the middle of a chase, try setting up the situation so that it is more like real life. Have someone ride a bike/run/skate past. (It is unrealistic to factor in deer/rabbits however if your training is thorough the dog will eventually be conditioned to return to you whatever the temptation in most contexts).

Until your training gets to this level, don't let the dog off-lead in a situation in which you don't have control over the chase triggers. Don't set the dog up to fail, and don't allow it to rehearse the problem behaviour. Remember, every time a dog is able to practise an undesirable behaviour it will get better at it!

Most people do not play with toys correctly and therefore the dog is not interested in them or, if it gets them, fails to bring it back to the owner.

Play the two ball game, once you have a dog ball crazy. Have two balls the same, throw one to the left, when the dog gets it, call him like crazy waving the next ball; as he comes back throw the other ball to the right and keep going left right so that YOU are the centre of the game and the dog gets conditioned to return to you for the toy. Once this behaviour is established you can then introduce the cues for out and then make control part of the game ie the game is contingent on the dog sitting and then progress to a sequence of behaviours.

HTH

Ultimate Recall: 4 Day Course with John Rogerson

• Training a reliable, automatic, non-negotiable, reality recall
• Building block and foundation training of the recall
• Relationship/influence building in recall training
• The chasing/emergency recall
• Sit and/or down on recall
• Freeze/stop on recall/running wait
• Distance/direction control
• Calling dogs off of distractions
• Out of sight recall (owner hidden)
• Obedience/competition recall (dog is called from a stationary position)
• Free running recall (dog is called while in motion)
• Type "A" recall (dog re-joins his owner in motion)

JOHN RESERVES THE RIGHT TO ADJUST COURSE CONTENT BASED ON THE ABILITIES OF DOGS AND HANDLERS ENROLLED ON THE COURSE.

Dates for Ultimate Recall Course:
At Caersws, Wales
7th-10th June, 2012; 4 days duration 9.30 am-4.00 pm
To register contact Gail Gwesyn-Pryce at gailconcenn@btinternet.com

At Andover, England
7th-10th August , 2012; 4 day duration 9.30 am-4.00 pm
To register contact Pauline Wise at pauline@wiseowl.wanadoo.co.uk

http://www.johnrogerson.com/2012coursesschedule.pdf

Chase Recall Masterclass (with Practical Demos) with Stella Bagshaw

Date: Friday 22nd June 2012 Venue: Chobham, Surrey Max number of participants: 22
Teaching a chase recall needs to be strategic, methodical and motivational – for both dog and owner.
With unique understanding and first-hand experience of successfully teaching remarkably effective
chase recalls, Stella Bagshaw will show you how to teach this important skill step-by-step, including:
What signals to use – when and how
Equipment, including line handling
Theory versus real life!
Motivation – what it really means to the dog
Handler commitment and motivation.
Prey – what the dog considers prey
Environment – where you walk your dog and why it matters
Practical demos included. Everyone should do this course! Donʼt miss it!
The cost is £145 per person, to include refreshments and a light lunch.

http://www.apdt.co.uk/documents/Masterclasses2012.pdf

Books

Stop! How to control predatory Chasing in Dogs
by David Ryan

Chase! Managing Your Dog's Predatory Instincts
By Clarissa Von Reinhardt

DVD

REALLY RELIABLE RECALL
by Leslie Nelson

Website article:

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/how-do-...y-dog-chasing/

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/2594

Have you looked here?

LAT would need, IMHO, in your dog's case (by the sound of it) be ideal ONCE you have the dog hooked on something it wants more than (insert relevant prey animal etc)

I would start off in the house first away from problem triggers to experiment with the dog.