Alternative ways to treat agression

As we seem to be always giving one dog behaviourist far to much board time and not giving people the choices that are unavailable to them on TV I had a look for a few clips online about different ways to train dogs
not saying I agree with every word said on these clips but it would be interesting to see what people think, and also to see other different methods of training dogs and dealing with behaviour problems

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTkYvn1HjrI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL13n-yYy8I

I must admit the second clip brought tears to my eyes - the difference in that dog from the beginning to the end of the film was wonderful.
Here`s a site people might like to look at as well-http://www.positivedogs.com/

yes, i would have never thought of using body armour for dogs but really its a great idea, takes away the fear that the dog might hurt you and makes the attack totaly unrewarding for the dog
liked the way instead of bullying the dog and using force they just taught it that hands were good things. bet the owners had been trying to show it who was the boss by taking food away when it was eating
but cudos to them for wanting to find him help after he had badly injured them, most people would have had that dog put to sleep

Absolutely - but I can understand the ethos behind it (something I was trying to get at on another thread) -

The dog has learned that a behaviour works - (aggression sends threat away)
So when the learned behaviour no longer works the dog has to re-evaluate.
The dog then learns a new behaviour.ignoring the threat
Because this is rewarded it becomes the preferred behaviour.

The new behaviour needs to be re-inforced (repeated) in different situations so it doesn`t become specific to one situation.

The learning takes time because you need to overcome a behaviour that was self-rewarding and deeply established.
Yup! All good stuff.

Great videos. I really liked what Ian Dunbar had to say -- he's a fantastic speaker as well.

The other trainer I really like is Jean Donaldson -- when I decided that i would be getting a dog I got "Culture Clash" and had a thorough read through of it. It's brilliant.

Ever since Skinner, Watson, et al. first came up with the theory of "behaviourism" we have so much sound research and data on animal learning these days that it never fails to amaze me that people, some trainers even, don't apply it to horses or dogs. I'm new to dogs so I don't know how frequently operant/classical conditioning methods are applied or not amongst professional trainers, but I can say that positive reinforcement models of training like what Ian Dunbar and Jean Donaldson discuss are extremely uncommon in the horse world. While some people have figured it out (so-called "horse whisperers") a lot of horse training, even at its highest levels, is structured around a paradigm of force and dominance: he tosses his head, tie it down with a martingale, he takes off, put in a harsher bit, he doesn't go forward, hit him with the whip, etc. etc. It actually kind of works sometimes so people keep using it because they have been using it for a very long time. I don't find it near as effective, however. This probably applies to dogs as well, but when the horse is rewarded for doing something right, she picks up the behaviour so much faster than when she is corrected for not doing it. Why this isn't a prevalent model for horse training I have no idea but at least based on books and what I read here, it may be more common in dog training.

Anyway... that's my rant of the day... LOL

Hi Gypsum I think many here are in agreement with you about Dunbar and Donaldson.


Good to see the videos above,thank you ...
This link is the one which was posted by 'Wysiwyg' who I think is a very good trainer in her own right.
Interesting what the lady has to say about some of the 'dominance theory' trainers which she used before she found a good trainer.

horses are so smart it is shame that most people use oldfashiond force methods
and of course the same for dogs
learning about the intermediate bridge method i read a lovely article on a woman who had trained her horse that way
she had called it to her but then noticed a snake in its path
she made her noise to let her horse know it was doing the right thing, then asked it to raise its head, it saw the snake but didnt panic and listned to her, she then asked it to go left and talked it round the snake. when we see how smart and trainable animals are we should feel so guilty that we havent used their brains before
i never thought to do any training with my mice, had i known hiw smart they were i would have tried to exercise their brains.
and the love and trust my dogs show me, along with the drive to work with me makes me glad there are positive ways we can work with our dogs rather than force and punishment

i cant post links just now but you tube has lots of great interviews with ian dunbar and some of the other great trainers out there

I was watching some of the youtube videos of Ian Dunbar earlier today (instead of work... oh well). Great stuff. I like the clicker training as well. Some people are using it with horses although it's very controversial since it uses treats. Using treats to train dogs seems more socially acceptable amongst the people who train them than horses. Lots of top trainers will say "Never, ever use treats to train a horse. The horse should do something because it wants to or has to." It's taught as doctrine. I don't use a lot of treats but did utilize them at one point to show the horse what "good girl" meant (they don't come with an automatic understanding of English -- I know, shocking). People use treats to train almost every other type of animal -- dogs, dolphins, wolves, grizzly bears, rodents, whatever. Why not horses?

My horse and I went through a long period of trying to get her to do dressage or else and it just didn't work. Trying to get her forward with a dressage whip is ineffective as she will just ignore it. These days she responds nicely to "good girl!" *pat pat pat* so I don't often have to use treats unless asking her to do something difficult or focus when she's really distracted, i.e. in heat. Most people at my barn probably think I'm insane because I ride around saying, "Good girl! Oh, so clever! Very good etc." That's just not really done, which is sad. I also don't chat to a lot of people about training 'cause they start looking at me like I am from another planet. These same people can be very good dog trainers and use reward-based methods for their dogs.

"Natural horsemanship" -- essentially horse training based on positive rewards although trainers will have different models and explanations for why it works -- was a bigger thing in the US than it seems to be in the UK. Lots of it at my old barn but appears very sparse around here.

Edit: We don't use a positive reward based system on people, either. Did being caught for speeding stop you from speeding or did you get cleverer about avoiding speed traps? What if the police pulled people over for not speeding and gave them £40? I'd certainly start sticking to the speed limit because £40 is a much better reward than getting to wherever I was going faster.

hopefully people will see the sucess you have with your horse and come round to more positive ways
a fave childhood book for me was black beuaty and i think that is part of what made me want to be a positive trainer
how you can train with kindness and empithy for the animal, like breaking to the bit with oats or not restricting the horses head so it can use all its force to pull
we are supposed to have the bigger brains but animals teach me new things all the time, they deserve that i try and teach them the best way for them

I read Black Beauty too! I think it's an important book because as you say, it brought up the question of the tight reins for carriage horses and made the point that we can try to put ourselves in the animal's place - and that force isn't necesssary.

I have no respect whatsoever for forceful trainers.

Thanks for bringing up that clip again of Tucker, Mini - I do love that video. Says such a lot I think

Wys
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