Police dog training- your thoughts

This didn't happen today, but got me thinking for a thread here.

We live near a police dog training area and there is one man near us that I think has his own private business as well as being a handler who was "training" another dog, seemed like a dad had asked him to have a go at teaching the "heel" command to his daughters GSD.

What struck me was how old fashioned the methods were and how unhappy the dog looked- it was being jerked about on a choke chain- I asked to watch under the pretence of socializing Betsy as I wanted her to get used to going on walks near the training area and not feeling the need to bomb over and say hello every time (she never has, just she has a thing for gsds ) to which the group agreed to.

Betsy chose that moment to behave herself beautifully (think she was about 11 weeks at the time) whilst the man continued with this "training" and so much which caused the other man to say "how come you don't train like that lady over there- her puppy seems well behaved?" to which he replied rather loudly "Well, at puppy classes for MOPs they train this by having a treat on their nose, however they don't like choke chains being given to MOPs otherwise the tendency is to put it on the *wrong way* and choke the dog" which came across a bit, I dunno, up himself.

Dunno about you, but choke chains are choke chains. They choke the dog no matter what way they are put round. I am embarrassed to say, and admit that twelve years ago I even used a choke chain on my old lab, again under the advice of a dog handler. Did it work? No. Did my lab have throat problems later in life- yes. No doubt related I bet.

I have also heard that it is common for police general purpose dogs in certain counties to react negatively torwards their handlers, something I'm convinced is related to this way of training. If someone chokes a dog who is scared and reactive against a situation, then maybe as a last resort fight or flight thing then it seems the only option in the dogs mind to get away?! Or is that me being naive?!

I have also talked to another walker who often would walk with me and my old dog who announced that he would be doing agility training with a police dog handler (great I thought, what fun!) and then he said he uses a shock collar to make sure the dog comes back. Dunno about you, but that seems very bullying behaviour. I think I would only use a shock collar if I god forbid was given the choice between betsy being pts or that as a last resort, with someone with such impeccable timing that they shouldn't need one in the first place!

Just seems to me that there is a real culture of negative reinforcement and punisher training with training general purpose dogs in my area. I took it up with my dad who is a PC who is convinced I am right and it does sound cruel. I know at the end of the day they are supposed to be viewed as tools for the job, but why deliberately make a tool faulty and not get the best value for money out of it?! When I talk to others, all the reply is they are well trained- but out of fear?! Does that make it right :/ something doesn't sit right with me. Compare this with some drugs sniffer dogs you have met and driven purely by balls, the tails never stop wagging!

Or am I being stupid to even question it? I know I'm not a dog handler, but this must be possible to train without what seems to be bullying tactics?!

Can I just say that this isn't just meant to be a generalization of accross the UK, just our area of a few handlers it seems.

Many of the instructors in the UK police dog training centres are forward thinking and use positive methods for training both their GP police dogs (ie GSDs and Malinois) and their search dogs (generally gundog types).

You will unfortunately probably always find some handlers/trainers who stick with the old fashioned methods of check chains, and jerk and shout type training However, I don't think they are the norm any more.

Thats good to know.

What i saw recently was positive .
A trainer (not sure if he was police or security) and a Mal training with a tug toy as a reward ...No chains of any kind and the dog was very very happy ...

My local police force now sources new general purpose dogs from Germany & Belgian already trained these dogs are purpose bred working line GSDs, it is actually cheaper for them to do this than use gifted dogs as 99% of gifted dogs either fail the health tests or the training courses-figures come from a friend who works for the police in their kennels

She tells me that all the dogs with the temperament problems were the gifted dogs & that the new dogs from the continent have ALL got excellent temperaments & are very easily handled by her when they are in the kennels, unlike the "trained"gifted dogs who can be very unpredictable They now have very few gifted dogs outside of the drugs/explosive dogs as they have been replaced on retirement by imported dogs

Their imported dogs have their training kept up obviously it is by & large reward based on the same lines as their initial training abroad My friend tells me some of the handlers have had problems getting away gtom the old choker"jerk"methods

Their drugs/explosive dogs are generally sourced & trained locally & trained by reward based methods

a few years ago the police did have a terrible reputation for their training methods and it was made public so i think there was a shake up somewhere and they changed tactics.
There are still a lot of old fashioned ideas out there unfortunately and people like caesar milan have a lot to answer for.
re: choke chains, my feelings about them are the same as for the prong collar thread and definately not repeatable in polite company.

I have watched general purpose police dogs being trained to do bite work using toys to motivate them. It was all very positive and the dogs were having a fabulous time. I do work with a dog handler who retired ten years ago and he's very keen on choke chains etc. He got himself a Lab puppy and I have succeeded in persuading him to use treats!

i actually use a retired police dog trainer for the rescues that come in and also for my last dog and will for my current dog when he is old enough. He doesnt use choke chains he uses a flat bridle leather kennel collar up around the top of the dogs neck.

I used to go training over here with some ex dog handlers and all three of them swore by using choke chains.......however, they were all retired so as Kirsty said I expect the handlers are much more au fait with training methods now. I would like to think so anyway. Sometimes Ailsa is a mare to get in and I grab her collar to convince her she should do as she's told and she starts wheezing at the slightest pressure on her neck so goodness knows what she would be like if I used a choke chain on her....