Pack Drive - What is it? How is it used?

Is it just a fancy name for something we have been doing/using for donkeys years - or is it actually a new training technique?

I'd like to know because it's been mentioned in another thread, but from what I've seen no-ones actually explained it properly or given real-life examples of how it can be used to train a dog.

It would be nice to hear from proponents of this 'technique' first, and perhaps we can all ask questions of them later.

At Dogsey, we're proud of the fact we are open-minded, and if it truly is a new and better way of training I'm sure many people will be eager to listen. Even if it isn't better (but to many of us has to be humane), it may still prove useful as an alternative technique for dogs that don't respond to peoples other training techniques. Knowledge is power after all.

If it's what I am thinking it is then I've been using it since Rocky was born (ok well since I got him), but it wasn't called 'pack drive' but reffered more to as 'pack hierarchy' so at the moment it doesn't sound like a 'new' system to me, but I am interested to read what's posted about it and how it actually differs to my perception of it, as I'm sure many of you are.

There's quite a lot of info in one of my books Azz, called "Schutzhund Obedience, training in drive" by G Dildei and S Booth. It's an interesting read but some of it sounds a bit different to what Jenni speaks about, I think

The female writer, Sheila, went on to write "Purely Positive Training" and decided to not use some of the methods related in her previous book which did include some corrections with prong collar and that sort of thing (US book).

Here's a tiny bit of info taken from the book:

Food drive - the dog's desire to persist in getting food, not always related to hunger.

Play drive - obsession with objects and desire to entertain him/herself actively

Prey drive - intensity in chasing anything moving away - catching, biting, carrying it.

Fight drive - desire to initiate and persist in confrontation both physical and mental

Pack drive - dog's desire to work with the handler and be a member of the team

Training in drive has 2 requirements:

Dog must have the drive to do the work
Owner must understand how to activate the drive.


Pack drive - Pack drive is the desire to work within the framework of the pack. All compulsion (?) relies on pack drive. It influences greatly how a dog reacts to pressure from the handler. Corrections can create avoidance ina dog with low pack drive.

Working solely in pack drive is usually the opposite of solely motivational training.

However, it is true that the bond withthe handler can be motivational for the dog; a willing and co-operative dog enjoys working for praise and petting and the joy of being part of the team. This dog has high pack drive.

For dogs high in pack drive serious or frequent corrections are rarely necessary, even the fine tuning for performance relies on very few corrections.

I only know what I've read here and experienced (as what I would call pack drive in my own situation). I have no idea if everyone who uses pack drive would say they use it in this way.

I believe it's often used by those involved in manwork, ringsports etc and many of them (not all though!) do train with some very harsh methods including shock collars. So I'm a bit confused myself!

Hope you haven't fallen asleep <g>

I found this othe other day and printed it off out of interest after it was mentioned on dogsey,think someone was asking about training without treats and this was mentioned.
This is by a lady called Kathy diamond.





The kind of grooming that will most increase pack drive is grooming every day. This gets your hands all over the dog, the dog working cooperatively with you to turn this way and that so you cover all the hair. Comb the hair completely through with a top-quality comb if it's long, give the dog a thorough rub-down with your hands if it's short.

It's really important that it be every day. Then it will not be painful. It will, however, teach the dog to tolerate mild discomfort, and to communicate to you when something hurts without turning around and biting you. It will also make you more aware of your dog's body language and help the two of you learn to move more smoothly as a team. You'll be able to guide your dog better with your hands in all other situations as you learn to do it
in grooming.

The grooming is great for your dog's health, too, not only skin and coat, but all the other things you will notice before they become advanced problems. And the effects on a dog's obedience and cuddliness are just astonishing.

Another way to increase pack drive is to keep the dog with you. House dogs are part of the family, they develop many interactive behaviors with you, and they feel they belong. If your dog still needs crating at night, putting the crate in your bedroom instead of another room would increase pack drive.

If the dog does not require a crate, your bedroom floor is the perfect place for a dog bed. Pack drive is increased by a dog sleeping on the bed, too, but there are several circumstances in which that would not be a safe practice, and it is not necessary in order to have a great relationship with your dog.

The major way most people probably increase their dogs' pack drives is training. Harsh correction methods will increase defense drives, so you don't want that. If the dog perceives you as a fair leader who is generous with praise and other rewards, the dog not only increases in pack drives, but also increases its specific bond to you.

Petting also increases pack drive, so if you can use it as a reward for commands obeyed (praise is always the first reward, then petting if appropriate, or food or play), you're getting double-duty out of the training. Praise as a reward is so very important, for the dog to learn to love the sound of your voice, at the same time you practice and learn by experimenting just exactly how to use your voice to motivate your dog. Every dog is a little different. And good use of your voice requires regular practice.

When you take the dog away from the house with you, that seems to increase pack drive, too. You are the amazing leader who conducts these wonderful expeditions! Best if you don't take other dogs at the same time, since the bond to you is the most important one, not the bond to the other dogs. If you have multiple dogs, they need to each spend time alone with you regularly, in order to maintain a good bond with you and not be bonded just to each other.

Getting along well with another dog of opposite sex in the home probably increases pack drive, too, but if the choice of the other dog were not compatible with this dog, that would be detrimental. If other dogs are acquired too quickly, that would be detrimental, too, because as you can see from reading through this, the things that increase pack drive in your dog are things that involve you spending one-on-one time with the dog. Every new dog you add can challenge your ability to provide that for each of them.

Thanks guys for the quotes and info.

Honestly? None of it really tells me anything new (of course that's not directed at you but those who wrote the pieces). Most of it we all know exists in some form in one dog or another. Eg, we know some dogs are 'driven' mostly by food, we know others love games etc etc

There does seem to be similarities with Pack Hierarchy, but, some differences too. Eg the bit about letting dogs sleep on the bed - in a household with children who sleep in their own rooms, I fear this could actually be dangerous, where the dog feels it is higher in the pack than the other household members.

How do these people actually train with this in mind? That's what I am interested to hear about the most, and it seems apart from the rhetoric and philosophy posted over the web there's a real lack of clear explanation of what they actually do.

Do I sound like I am not convinced? Well I think understandably I'm (and many others) are not at the moment. But that doesn't mean we've made our minds up and are not willing to learn more, in fact most of us are eager for information, because we appreciate that we can never know too much.

I liked the idea of grooming use to do that a lot with Max and he definately knew his place,he was allowed on the bed also,we didn't have small children though so it wasn't an issue he started off on our bed but never stayed always moved during the night and found his own spot but would come for his cuddle in the morning.
Ollie we don't allow upstairs at the moment as we have to watch his joints being a large breed whether we will or not when he is older we are not sure about as it is quite nice having the bedrooom a dog free zone.
I think most of it is stuff most of know or do already with our dogs so like you I don't think there is anything new in there,interesting reading though.

Azz - I still don't really understand it completely but I think it's essentilly about exploiting this particular drive, i.e. the dog being a pack animal and enjoying certain pack-orientated experiences with its pack, which it gets when it 'complies'?

It isn't anything new but it appears - and I say appear because I have not come across anything online - to have been given a name or categorised, as with, say, Amichien (no judging here) and has become a 'technique'.

It has value, I am in absolutely no doubt, but I do think most of us use it intuitively without realising it but not exclusively, and I don't think it should be used exclusively - we need to adapt depending upon the circumstances. I do think it has worth but I do honestly believe that we have a whole wealth of 'techniques' at our fingertips and that we should choose them depending upon the dog in question, the mood, the training, even our own limitations - you know what I mean? And I think we do anyway.

Still it is a good idea to discuss it and perhaps see if there are ways we can hone our skills. There are many out there who don't give it much thought but we do on here.

Lynn - I think I have used grooming without even knowing it then. As Rocky is a naughty boy who loves to get all muddy, and so I have to bath him and then dry him - I have noticed he gets all excited after being dried with a towel and I definately see him as happy/cheeky after it (you know he does that 'grin' thing!).

I mean I've always known it is a good thing to do, especially in terms of cats - they are groomed by their mum, and so your continual grroming helps build a bond with them. I'm sure Cheetah thinks I'm her 'mum' (aww bless her).

With regards to dogs, as far as I know it's pack leader who grooms - so again, to many of us the the correlation is Pack Hierarchy and not Pack Drive...

LS - I agree I think many of us (and I think many were trying to say in the other thread) is that is it really anything 'new'? So far, I don't think so, but maybe this thread might show otherwise.

I agree that we can never know too much, and if it does give us an extra technique then great

I would still like to hear about how you actually train using this tho, as only then can we get a better idea of what it really is.

I also agree that we on Dogsey are probably one of the most open-minded sites out there - and you all deserve a medal for being a step above :smt023

Personally I don't think I would use it to train like you Azz not sure how it would work.
I tend to use bits and pieces from things I have done before with other dogs knowing what worked for them and which didn't I do the grooming and drying Ollie off when he comes in wet from the field, he likes to bite the sheet I am drying him off with,but I know like you do with Rocky he enjoys it and expects it he lays on his cover and keeps looking at me as if to say come on then get on with it.When he is dried off he settles down to sleep.
Must admit I enjoy it too feel closer to him somehow,can't explain it.So I think there are good bits in there its just what works for you and your dog I suppose.
He does get treats also otherwise he would never come back when let off.

Pack Drive - What is it? How is it used?

To put it in the simplest terms as I see it ... JMO

Firstly what are 'drives'. I see them as innate desires related to reproduction, self-preservation or aggression.

Do dogs have drives, I think it is obvious that they do as do humans.
I would say although many dogs possess the same drives, the intensity of a particular drive is to some extent dependant on the breed and the original purpose for which it was bred. To train a dog using a drive you first have to find out which particular drive is strongest in the dog you are training, then work out what best motivates that drive eg food or some form of attention/human interaction.

To me a dogs 'pack drive' is it's desire to be part of a family grouping, so to train using 'pack drive' is to motivate and reward a dog using attention and approval from a member of the group.


With reference to the article quoted by Lyn many of the things suggested are not mutually exclusive to training using a dogs pack drive ..

Every good owned should groom and gently check their puppy/dog over from head to toe every single day regardless of what training method they use. Not only does this provide an opportunity to spot any potential health problems and to keep the coat in good shape, it also get a dog used to being handled, invaluable for visits to the vet.

Also, when endeavouring to 'increase pack drive' using lots of human attention one should be aware that some dog who become to reliant on their owners are susceptible to separation anxiety, I think dogs need to learn a certain degree of independence .

I found this interesting:

Many books and articles have shared the common knowledge that dogs are pack animals. They prefer a social lifestyle built around others that we as humans, would call family. This truth doesn't always clarify the fact that dogs do vary in their pack drives or that their pack structure is not static. For example, the work performed by a Sighthound or Terrier varies vastly in its sense of independence from that of a Retriever or Herding dog. Generally, those breeds (or types) that were developed to work closely with human counterparts, will exhibit higher pack behavior and thus, by the standards of many people be given labels like "higher desire to please" or even more intelligent than more independent dogs. This is likely a bit unfair, since, as in the example of the Sighthound here, the difference is likely not one of intelligence but rather of the ability of the "trainer" to motivate. Lower pack drive or more independence will mean that companionship and attention do not typically rate highly as motivators.

......

The drive for food seems so obvious as to hardly necessitate comment. Yet, within the world of dogs, there is a vast chasm between the dog that is strongly food motivated and the one that is not. Is it anything other than paradoxical that those breeds we think of as being rather low in food drive are often low in pack drive and typically grouped as difficult to train or even called less intelligent? Or is it more likely that their lack of drives in this areas that many trainers look to first (praise and food) tend not to be extremely motivating? Regardless, whether using food in training or not, every dog enjoys motivators that a trainer can make use of.

http://www.digitaldog.com/behaviorintro.html

I guess it's about using praise, body language, social interaction, facial expressions, affection, play to reinforce and reward. So rather than use a treat to reward recall, you use a happy voice, lots of praise, hugs, a game etc.? But I do that anyway as well as treats AND instead of. I vary it.

I just did the questionnaire on here and apparently Loki is prey, pack and defense fight driven - low flight .

http://www.volhard.com/training/cpp.htm