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Azz
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22-03-2007, 10:29 PM

Feeding Raw - is it dangerous?

Use this thread to debate whether you think raw feeding is dangerous or not. And if not, feel free to say what, if any, benefits there are in doing so.

Please use facts or quotes from experts to back up statements wherever possible.

Don't take things in this thread personally - remember that part of being a responsible owner is to do the best for your dog, and you can only do that if you're willing to hear a whole range of opinions. That goes for people on all 'sides'.

Please conduct the discussion in an adult manner - the thread will be followed closely by mods and anyone overstepping the mark will be infracted
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lizziel
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22-03-2007, 10:44 PM
Following up on the suggestion that raw feeding leads to salmonella poisoning etc here are a couple of links that give an opposite view on this

http://rawfed.com/myths/zoonotic.html


http://k9joy.com/dogarticles/doghealth01salmonella.pd

And another about parasites in raw meat

http://rawfed.com/myths/parasites.html

I feed raw myself but am well aware that all over the internet there is information that supports raw feeding and information that slates raw feeding.

As I have said many a time - do your research and make up your own mind. Feed the diet that suits you and your dog, accept that any type of diet has it's risks as does living in general. Make your choice and respect other people's choices
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zoeybeau1
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22-03-2007, 10:45 PM
i was following this thread with intrest having not long switched over one of my dogs to raw,iv had good results so far with it but all the rest are fed on pedro gold a ceral based diet with only raw meat once a week, iv no bad bellies,and no bad doses of skits in any of my lot no-more,which for me can only be good as trying to lift skits is no funand im sure no fun for the dogs,i tried my tigger on any amount of diffrent foods over the years trying to sort out her problem.
im sure i will find this debate intresting.how many times though have we heard this dog food is good that dog food is good ,dogs are individuals as are people and certain foods irritate the guts outta one but not another,The old collie up the street years ago thrived and looked good and worked for 15 years on 1 tin of chappie a loaf of brown bread and scraps, if you gave that to my dog hed be in the vets after 1 week suffering dehydration from a weeks worth of skits.

no 2 dogs are the same,no 2 dogs can thrive on the same all dogs are diffrent.
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Shona
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22-03-2007, 11:46 PM
I have seen many dogs come to the club, one in particular who had been fed, burns, this was there first dog from puppy as the other had been a rescue, I took one look at the dog and said it needed to see a vet, It was painfuly thin, when she came back it turned out to be a problem with the food, she had been told to give the dog cooked potatoes, I felt than when feeding a high cost food you should not need to bulk it up with other foods, hyper dogs are another big issue with top brand compleat, I have had good results in pups with Eukanuba but once the main growth stage is over they go onto the cheapest of the cheap, DJ and have meat added, my lot do great on it,
I feel sorry for dogs who cant have a varied diet due to tummy upsets,
Does anyone think some breeds are more prone to digestive problems than others ?
I find some dogs seem more prone to skin problems, and the like, it always seems to be the feed in the top price range that they are on!
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Ripsnorterthe2nd
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23-03-2007, 12:10 AM
Dangerous in what way? Do you mean with regards to the bones being fed???

I think personally that any path chosen in life can be dangerous, without undertaking proper research.

Take a large dog that has been dry fed most of it's adult life. The owner suddenly decides that a few chicken wings here and there will help the dogs teeth. A few chicken wings later the dog is dead as it has swallowed them whole resulting in the intestines being ruptured. It was never given the chance to learn how to eat raw food.

This for me is the only danger in raw feeding - lack of research/education.

Isla is raw fed (English Springer) and loves it, is in the peak of condition and has never had a problem with it. Saying that however, she has had raw bones from about 12 weeks of age.

Woody (11 year old Lab) has never been raw fed, even though he would love it. Give him a chicken wing and he may well end up like the dog in the above scenario! Which is why he ain't raw fed!

I don't have any quotes to offer etc, just personal experince/advice. I've spent the last 3 years living and breathing nursing quotes, me thinks it's time for a break!
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Vodka Vixen
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23-03-2007, 07:25 AM
I dont have any quotes or anything either and i have also been following this thread as i have changed over to raw recently, well Diesel gets a mixture of raw and cooked fresh food.

All i can say from MY experience so far, Diesel is looking and behaving far better since the switch, before, he was fed on a quality kibble, he was uninterested in his food alot of the time but very hyper at the same time, it got to a point where he wasnt gaining any weight and just not looking as he should and had regular loose stools. After the switch, he now eats every scrap and usually wants more, he is calmer (slightly) and has put the weight back on. Nice firm stools

I also have a 5 yr old daughter but have had no problems with cross contamination as i treat D's food as i would our own. She doesnt touch the dogs food or bowls and we dont really let him lick us anyway so this hasnt been a problem either. (she has much dirtier habits )

Unless there are any adverse effects on Diesel i will be continuing with the raw path.

There is an element of risk in everything we do and it may not be suitable for everyone but it works for me
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Lynn
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23-03-2007, 07:40 AM
Ollie is fed raw and does well on it too,but he has been weaned on it and raw chicken wings and carcasses,he has other things in with his raw mince veg and fruit, sunflower,oil, garlic and natural yoghurt the same diet his breeder gave him and gives all her other dogs.Everyone remarks on how soft and shiny Ollies coat is.She has done a lot of research and feels this is the best.Having lost a dog to cancer at 41/2 I vowed I would never feed commercial food again,whether that was the cause or not I shall never know it was personal choice not to feed it.I would never assume to tell people what is right or wrong to feed their dogs we all have to do what we feel is right and if we feel our dogs are thriving on their diet then thats great.My Friend who has a black lab feeds commercial dry food and he always has an upset tum she has asked many times about Ollies diet but chooses not to feed raw that is her choice and for her to realise maybe her dogs food needs changing if not to raw maybe another type of dry food but it is her choice not mine.
There are risks to everything we do and feed and eat ourselves if we listened and took note of everything we read and hear I am not sure we would get out of bed in the morning let alone eat anything I respect everyones view on this and have no problems with anyone feeding commercial foods after all it is your choice not mine.
But we must be understood about why we feed our dogs raw.As long as you are careful and wash your hands and use a seperate board for preparation there should be no problems with contamination to the rest of the Family after all what about if you prepare raw meat to put in the oven for your dinner same priciple IMO we need to take care.
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IanTaylor
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23-03-2007, 07:45 AM
I've no reason to believe it's dangerous, as long as it's done properly. My two are thriving on it and it's obvious from seeing them that they enjoy it far more than the dry, complete stuff.
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Ramble
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23-03-2007, 10:08 AM
I think it is important to feed dogs what THEY do best on individually.
I choose NOT to feed raw, I choose not to as one of my dogs wouldn't have a clue what to do with it. I also choose not to because I think the risk of bone splinters is too high for my liking, I also don't like what I've read about salmonella etc. That's my choice. I feed a decent kibble and my dogs are thriving on it.

Each to their own. There is no right way. In the future I would consider feeding a balanced cooked diet, as Mini does, if it worked for any future dog.

If peoples dogs thrive on raw...great for them...if they thrive on kibble, great for them.
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Meganrose
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23-03-2007, 10:27 AM
Raw feeding - Perhaps a more balanced view?

I was brought up with the dogs shouldn't have raw bones era and in them days that was the advice usually given out by the vets. Thank fully many are much more forward thinking these days.

I'm not advocating feeding in any particular way..I do feed raw to some of my dogs and a good quality dried to some of the others and I think that you just have to make up your own minds. There is good and bad points with both IMO.

After reading the previous thread on the dangers of raw feeding, I thought this article produced by my friend Karen on another educational dog site gives a good all round perspective. It is very long (sorry) but I think it's worth reading through and considering. Anyway without further ado here's the article copied with kind permission from Karen;

"Myth: THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH TO BACK RAW DIETS. "You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views, which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering." — Dr. Who The implication here is that because there is "no scientific research" performed by institutions like the American Veterinary Medicine Association (AVMA), raw diets should not be fed. This 'no scientific research' declaration is a cop-out claim that has been used to "debunk" raw diets and suppress the truth. But one must realize that there is NO evidence whatsoever to prove that kibbled, processed foods are good for your pets. The only research that has been done into processed foods was performed to see a) if dogs could be fed a grain-based food, b) if dogs could survive acceptably on these processed foods for a short period of time, c) if X brand of food can do such-and-such for the dog (help with kidney disease, help with diabetes, help with obesity), and d) if X brand of food is "better" (more palatable, better liked, less total stool volume, etc.) than Y brand of food. No research has been done to determine the long-term effects of feeding kibble, nor to determine if it is actually healthy for your dog (it is just assumed healthy because it has passed a 6 month feeding trial, and then manufacturers falsely advertise their product as healthy.).
But as for raw diets: one million years of evolution apparently is not enough evidence for those citing lack of research and lack of studies in scientific literature. Neither the anatomical and physiological evidence of dogs, nor mtDNA evidence, nor circumstantial and statistical evidence of diseases in processed food-fed pets, nor anecdotal evidence are enough from those becrying the lack of "studies" and "research". Anecdotal, eyewitness evidence is dismissed because it is scientifically "unfounded" and anecdotal, even when the evidence is standing right before their eyes in easily seen, wonderful health (It is interesting to note that eyewitness evidence is enough to help condemn a man in a court of law, but is not enough for the "scientific" community composed of pet food manufacturers and their affiliates—which include vet universities and most vets.). People then expect raw feeders to take their anecdotal and eyewitness evidence as truth when they have already dismissed the evidence offered by the raw feeder as anecdotal. "I've seen so many dogs come into my clinic with nutritional problems because of raw diets!" (What about all the sick commercially fed pets that come into your office?) "Bones are going to kill your dog" (Oh yeah? Says who? Prove it!). This distinct bias has been used in veterinary literature to "prove" raw diets are not as good as commercial:
"Although there are numerous claims to the health benefits of raw food diets, all are anecdotal...The raw bones included in many of these diets carry risks, and although the actual incidence of complications resulting from ingestion of raw bones is unknown, there are reports of intestinal obstruction, gastrointestinal perforation, gastroenteritis, and fractured teeth..." pg 706, emphasis added (Freeman, L.M. and K.E. Michel. Evaluation of raw food diets for dogs. JAVMA. 218(5): 705-709)
The claims of raw food diets are dismissed as anecdotal, and then the readers are later asked to consider the similarly anecdotal, undocumented "reports" against raw food diets! This is nothing but a head-in-the-sand approach that attempts to maintain the status quo.
There is a lack of "scientific" evidence in the form of research studies on raw diets. Why? Well, who is going to pay for an extensive research study on raw diets when the evidence may be damning? People point to all the studies done by commercial pet food companies and cite the lack of similar studies done on raw diets as evidence that raw diets are bad and inferior. But let us look at how studies actually come about.
First, you must come up with a hypothesis and a purpose. What are you studying? Why are you studying it? What do you expect to prove? After you figure this out you design your study, including methods, control groups, and variables. You draw out everything in great detail, and then you incorporate this into a grant; after all, you need a large amount of money to run your study. So where do you get the money? You look at individuals, corporations, and companies that might be interested in your project. Some of the bigger companies and corporations already have pre-existing grant monies for which you can apply. Other times you have to present the grant to a company and ask for funds that have not already been set aside into a specific grant. How do you ensure the receipt of this money? You appeal to people who will have a great interest in what you are doing. You appeal to the companies that in some way have a financial interest in what you are studying (for example, a biomedical company that wishes to branch out from artificial joints into artificial menisci and artificial vertebral discs—which happen to be what you are studying!), and will therefore fund your project so as to find out more; it just might pay off for them in some way. That is the key: you are approaching companies that may offer you money because there will be something in it for them.
But what happens if the results actually reflect unfavorably upon the product you are testing or the method you are studying, and therefore reflect unfavorably upon the company that makes said product or endorses said method? It depends on how much is at stake. If there was very little at stake initially—perhaps it was a small pilot study with the company looking to see if artificial menisci might even be worth their time—then there should not be a problem. It tells them what they wanted to know and it was not a big loss (Some would argue that perhaps pet food companies did this with raw diets. But if that was the case, they would have all the facts and figures reflecting negatively on raw food readily available; they could simply parade out the results of that study to prove once and for all that raw diets are worthless. But, they do not do this. Why? Because they do not have these results.). But what if billions of dollars and an entire existing superstructure were at stake? What will happen to the results? In human medicine, this has led to the suppression of information, such as the suppression of information regarding the dangers of Vioxx (To read more about how this happens in industry, visit Mercola.com.).
Now let us apply this to the pet food manufacturers and to studies into raw diets. Almost every single study performed on commercial pet foods has been partially or fully funded by pet food companies. An example would be Purina's own study on extending the life of your pet; they discovered that by feeding smaller amounts of their Purina dog food and thus keeping the dog from getting fat, you could extend the life of your dog by two years. This, of course, supports the already well-known thought that keeping your pets trim is better for their health (once again, scientific "studies" being used to prove what is common sense.). But by using only their food in the study, they can then insinuate that it is Purina dog food that extends the life of your pet—and the little asterisk on the ad or the fine print on the TV tells you that this is only if you feed less than the recommended amount on the bag, thereby keeping your pet trim and not fat. But who reads the fine print?
Let us look at raw diets. Who would support a good, solid study into raw diets? What would happen if the results reflect negatively on commercial diets and positively on raw diets? Think of how much they have to lose!! Personally, I feel the lack of studies and the lack of willingness to do studies on raw diets indicates a desire to hide something, to cover something up that people do not want to be found. And I know of no pet food company that will pay for a raw diet research study. None of their control groups in their own studies are even fed a raw diet! The studies are performed under false assumptions that dogs are omnivores and can be maintained healthfully on grain-based, processed diets. Interestingly enough, it was the scientific research of the pet food companies that helped prove that dogs have no need for carbohydrates. The research in their own files (and in the Waltham Book of Dog and Cat Nutrition) demonstrates perfectly well that they know dogs are carnivorous animals. And yet they continue to mislead the public, the veterinarians, and the vets-to-be.
There have been "studies" done on bacterial content, nutritional analysis (according to AAFCO standards), and parasites in raw meat (using only the old, pre-existing literature on what kind of parasites could possibly be found in raw meat), but there are no studies that go in depth and objectively study the health effects of raw diets. Why would there be? This would involve a long, intense study requiring collaboration of vets nationwide and of multiple pet owners, or undue suffering to hundreds of "test" dogs who must be fed improper raw diets in the name of "scientific objectivity" (and there is the possibility that these poor results would then be used to show that ALL raw diets are bad). Indeed, funding is a huge issue as well, but I feel there are underlying issues: a fear of what may be found, that raw diets will indeed be proven better, that commercial diets will be proven unhealthy. This drastically cuts against the status quo and would destroy pet food companies and the veterinarians who depend on them to provide a clientele.
If raw diets were proven better and commercial diets were proven harmful, there would be a tremendous backlash against the pet food industries and the veterinary profession that is so entrenched with it. Legal rammifications would be a highly probable option: people suing vets for recommending a product that harms their pets; people suing the pet food companies for creating a harmful product without warning consumers of its dangers, for falsely advertising that product as healthy, and for lying and covering up the information that indicated otherwise; and vets suing the universities for providing an inadequate, faulty education. Thousands of people would be laid off, a multi-billion dollar industry would crumble, hundreds of veterinarians would find themselves jobless, and society would no longer have an 'acceptable' outlet for disposing of its dead, dying, and diseased meat, its grain waste, and the some 40% of euthanized pets that find their way into rendering plants and kibble, barbituates and all (Lonsdale, T. 2001. Raw Meaty Bones.; Martin, A. Foods Pets Die For.). All of this is what they have to lose if the results of a raw diet study reflect unfavorably on commercial foods. Can one see the incentive in never performing or publishing a proper study that objectively looks at raw diets and their effects on the overall health of the dog? Note: if you are a pet owner, veterinarian, or veterinary student who feels wronged by the pet food companies or their close ties to veterinary universities, please visit the Raw Meaty Bones website to get information on your legal options (click on the "Legal Remedies" link). Additionally, in the UK an organization known as UKRMB has helped spearhead an Early Day Motion against the alliance between pet food companies and the veterinary profession. To read about it, please click here.
This is not the only consideration when it comes to raw food research. To perform an adequate study that would satisfy all the critics, hundreds of dogs would need to suffer needlessly on improperly prepared raw diets, because in the name of 'science' all the major variations of the diets would be tested. That means dogs will be fed all meat diets, all chicken-back and neck diets, veggie glop and some meat and mostly bone diets, all beef-heart diets, etc. when all the researchers need to do is look to nature, who got it right a million years ago. It is just needless suffering. Next time someone bemoans the lack of scientific studies about raw, ask them if they would like to volunteer their dog for the study.
Instead of pushing for, funding, and advocating an unbiased study (which is a good thing in the sense it spares animals from unnecessary suffering in the name of science), vets and other "scientifically minded" people point out the lack of studies and retreat behind that facade in an effort to save face while ignoring a million years' worth of scientific studies performed in nature's laboratory. But there are some cruelty-free studies that could be performed; for example, researchers could start looking at the incidence of periodontal disease in raw-fed and commercially-fed pets. However, even something this simple-sounding can be a difficult thing to do correctly, as there are many variables that must either be minimized/weaned out of the study or that will have to be included. Plus, it requires a large sample size and great collaboration among pet owners, the vets, and the researchers. Once again, though, we come to the main impetus behind the study: who will pay for it, and why?"
By Carissa Kuehn

Makes you think..doesn't it?
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