Dogs being dogs

How often do we really accept n try understand their ways/behaviour without trying to adapt them into our own lifestyles? How many of us could survive in a pack of dogs/wolves without human contact or understanding of their ways. I would find it very difficult if not impossible yet humans have done so.

I dont think it is possible for a human to live totaly with a pack of wolves and totaly understand what is going on

To start with everyone would be going in with their own missconceptions about behaviour
Having a human in the pack would change the behaviour of the pack
and we dont have the same senses or body laungage so we will be missing many signals

Its interesting but its just not possible

Agree very much, thankyou. Dogs seem very much to have become a 'fashion accessory, status symbol in the eyes of many in recent years, dressing up in gaudy,tacky 'dog accessories to match handbags etc or the heavy leather,studded harnesses to make em look 'well 'ard'. Ohh we'd love a dog but not one that sheds hair or makes a mess of our house or spoil the carpets etc. Dogs don't live in or understand a Dfs, or PC world. Sorry for rant, again

I think we ask a heck of a lot from our dogs and they are amazing animals the way they adapt to our lifestyles.

Some dogs find it much harder than others and we owe it to them to be patient and understanding and to adapt a little bit ourselves when they have limitations.

They are amazing and is a great shame that many don't understand/repect and realise such. There are times when folk take a dog into their lives, from pup, rescue etc. whatever. but stick with n care for the dog as much as possibly can. Others just chuck them out onto to street or at best leave them on rescue doorstep.

See I let my dogs be dogs as much as possible. Like as well as my training with Louie - I've only taught him manners humans like, the other manners like not jumping on/trying to hump Sadie, going near Benjie's bone or even stealing the other dogs dinner (they're all fed at the same time) has been taught by the others, when Louie was about 14 weeks he had a wake up call from a GSD x who basically warned him not to get close to her stick - he got close she snapped at him - the owner apologising profusely - me telling him not to - Louie needed to learn that he can't have what doesn't belong to him and that not all dogs were like Sadie.

So in that sense - I teach my dog manners when greeting humans and the dogs teach him how to approach other dogs (well Sadie does - Benjie's taught him to lunge on the lead - except Louie does it wanting to play unlike Benjie - thanks Benjie)

Although I haven't taught him not to jump up at people - as I believe in dog/wolf packs when the adults have come back from a hunt, puppies and the younger ones jump all over them - and I quite like a big cuddle when I walk through the door after a long shopping trip that I didn't want to go on. He knows not to jump up at toddlers though, I did teach him that - he's very gentle with them. And very curious of my 5 month old niece - but that maybe because she is being passed about in the air and he's only met children on the ground - an example of they don't understand our culture. But we don't fully understand theirs either.

I think I was watching a programme where they were comparing growth rates of different breeds and also of a wolf - starting from conception. The narrator said that domestic dogs don't stay in the womb as long as their brain doesn't need to grow as much or form like the wolf cub does - as domestic dogs have in a sense gotten stupid. They don't have to hunt for themselves, find a den to sleep in, therefore they don't have to travel miles to get food and they don't have to use their brain to make a sleeping area as us humans provide it all for them, they also don't really have to protect themselves from the other dogs they share their lives with (well there are exceptions). But wolves brains are much larger than that of the domestic dog because wolves need theirs more. If that makes sense.
I do think though that Huskies and Mals and other dogs that are deemed closer to their ancestry would do better if released into the wild - they already have the strong ability to hunt, they know how to curl up and cover their noses when it's cold. So credit to the owners of them breeds as even I believe they are difficult dogs - although I do love having a mauling by them (by mauling I mean when I go round to my friends who has 8 dogs, 4 huskies, 2 husky crosses and 2 regular mutts - I sit in a chair then they let them in from outside and I am kissed and licked till they've run out gross I know but I love it!)

I don't think a regular human - one who hasn't read up on dogs, hasn't really looked at the behaviour and understands body language and one who just owns a Chi that is put in a handbag and is aggressive when people go near the bag - would be able to survive half an hour with a pack of wild dogs/wolves.

Of course I don't think I would either. I only have 3 dogs and to me it is a pack divided, yes they walk and they eat together, but only Sadie and Louie sleep together and play together - Benjie separates himself and has done for the past two years that I have known him and even before - he won't allow any dog in the street to greet him - well if they try the are met with growling and barking. But I think those who live with 5+ dogs are better intune with how they behave together and how they as a "pack" welcome or shun other dogs.

I think that all makes sense?

I'm in the middle of this one at the moment - Layton's welcome home is utterly utterly hilarious and incredibly endearing - think Tigger vertical bounces, coupled with the facial expressions of Roland Rat going on and a helicopter tail... I don't want to take the bounce out of the poor chap - especially since he's generally got such a heartbreaking aura of sad old dog about him (he's just got that face and demeanour in general - and mastered the sad puppy dog eyes very well), but at the same time I don't want to encourage the jumping AT people because I know in the past it's scared the living daylights out of me being on the recieving end of that. So I'll tolerate the vertical boinging - because it really does stop you coming through the door feeling in a grump from the day when you're greeted with a 3 foot high boinging grin!

I'll freely admit though - I'm still very very new to reading the signals dogs send out - I grew up around cats, and for a while as a kid I was very wary of dogs, I'd been taught how to behave around them - to ask before stroking and not to run around shrieking and acting like a wally if one came up to me and the like - but just out of unfamiliarity with them I was on my guard. I'm probably TOO non-laid back about how he behaves around other people for fear of causing offence to them as a consequence.

Wish I WAS better at reading him to be honest - I keep beating myself up that he's not happy, that he doesn't like me, that he's not doing the right things and everything else. He may be my baby substitute in a way but he's a dog - not a human.

This article, an extract from the latest Richard Dawkins book, is absolutely fascinating - it's about the domestication of the dog and the genetics of 'tameness'. The study with the foxes is just mindblowing.

Dogs and humans are a classic example of a synbiotic relationship - they alter their behaviour to suit our lifestyles, and help us with hunting/herding/transport/guarding in return for which they get shelter, food, medical care, a life (hopefully) filled with fun, largely free from responsibility. We infantilise them really - they're like puppies their whole lives in the sense that they never have to start taking on responsibilities in the pack, never have to think about the problems of survival and in most cases never become sexually active. Understanding dogs I think gives you a superficial insight into wolf behaviour, but domestic dogs just don't behave like wild wolves anymore - they've become completely dependent on us. Yes, we do exploit them in a way, but in evolutionary terms it's a great deal for them (or it would be if we allowed them to breed indiscriminately).

I agree that when dogs are interacting with other dogs they should be allowed to do their own thing - they understand each other better than we understand them. But when they are interacting with humans, it's fair that they should be expected to alter their behaviour. I don't care if our dogs jump all over each other, but they are not to do it to humans unless invited. It's not so bad if it's you, but if an old person, someone with a broken arm, a child, or just someone who is not comfortable with dogs comes to our house, they have the right not to have two massive paws landed on their chest. And if we're out on a walk, I don't want to come back as muddy as the Golden Retriever.

Thankyou so much for all your interesting replies,detail and information you've given. Still have a lot to and will never stop trying to learn about dogs, it helps to hear of other folks experiences, thoughts n knowledge. Have a growing list of books to order also(best put up a new shelf n reading lamp)

I try and allow my dogs to behave as naturally as possible and i'm quite taken with the whole idea TBH.

This is why I feed them the prey model diet and I kind of base what they eat on what a fox would eat for example. When i'm out I let my dogs hunt as they would if they were having to fend for themselves and between the three of them they've worked out a structure. I obviously control the hunting, I dont just let them off the lead to wreak havoc on the countryside but if they sniff out and dig out a vole and eat it, well done to them I say. If they catch a rabbit an even bigger well done. It shows that they still have the hunting skills to catch their own dinner and I very much like that notion.

On the other hand, there are many behaviours we have to suppress in dogs if they are to integrate into society and our household. I take my dogs to obedience classes, they've done agility etc and all this is unnatural for a dog really. It's not natural for a dog to walk at heel or perform little tricks but we do it because it gives the dog a brain work out in a way we find acceptable.

Of course, we have to impose strict manners and limitations on how dogs would behave if left to their own devices but within those limitations and rules galore, I do try and allow my dogs to be as doggy as possible (I draw the line at eating or rolling in poo or dead things though!)