Ah so you were trying to teach the dog too much in one go. You should perhaps have worked on the staying close and when that was solid, then introduce gradual distractions - slower perhaps but far more consistent, safe, and no punitive measures necessary.
It saddens me that dogs get overloaded with stimuli they are not ready to cope with because the handler is impatient and its the dog which gets punished for it

Now if you were to say it was ok for me to zap a handler every time they get something wrong for their dog and are pushing them to far, and for me to give them instruction in a language they don`t understand any more than a dog can understand our words, that I`d be ok with

For most dogs, sit is one of the first things they are taught - usually as pups - therefore can be very easily damaged by physical pressure.
Don`t forget the usual reaction from a dog is to push up against that pressure so even when what the hand is doing might not feel like much force is being used, its automatically doubled when the pup / adult pushes against it.

So surely it would be better if you wore the shock collar and not the dog ? Why should the dog be punished for your mistakes ?

If he can easily escape his lead, use a harness or get a better quality lead. It`s your responsibility to keep him safe, its not right to punish a dog for the failings of his human

Well said !
I have never heard of a wolf needing to use a shock collar on a pack member to keep them close, and I can`t remember seeing any documentaries which show a wolf going up to another, howling a Sit cue then pushing it down into a sit, giving some praise, then wandering off again

What about the small matter of the law of the land which means no dog regardless of how well behaved they are should be off lead around livestock unless they are supposed to be actually working that live stock ? Why is it about what you want as opposed to what`s morally and legally correct which is that dogs should be on lead when within range of livestock ?

Maybe I'm missing something but why is it so important for you to teach your dog to stay close around livestock offlead. The dog should stay that close to you that you could have it on a lead anyway. So why put all this pressure on yourself or the dog???? It all seems mad. I know people who do top level obedience with their dogs, a level that you, me and most people will never acheive, however when I go out walking with them, they still put their dogs on a lead when going through fields of livestock. It's legally and morally the correct thing to do.
You don't want your dog running round where there is livestock anyway so what difference does it make if you put it on a lead??? Why go to such extreme measures when there's not a problem there.

yea i am not disagreeing a pup could be easily damaged by enough physical pressure but has it happened, claireanddaisy said about spinal injuries and i asked for an example of where this method has been proven to result in spinal injuries because it just seems like hypothesis, I think we like to portray pups sometimes as less robust than they are to make a point and it sometimes invalidates points or lessens them. You used teaching a deaf dog as a very good example of the validity of a hands off approach to sitting - but no one has given proof of such an injury yet so why throw it up at people, for all I know statistically more dogs could have been hurt doing agility than being taught to sit by firmly pushing its rump, but im not going to condemn agility one bit because its a fantastic past time for dog and owner - thats not a dig by the way at all, just using an example of something close to home.
My point was ClaireandDaisy made the comment to make a point and I just want her to back it up, thats all.

I am passing on what I`ve been told, and if you think about it, putting repeated pressure on a weak part of the body (and the centre back is a weak area) must logically have a deleterious effect. Or are we going back to the `it doesn`t hurt my dog` argument as with electric shocks? If it`s enough pressure to push a non-compliant dog down, it must be overcoming the dog`s own muscular structure by force. How can this not do damage? I don`t have medical evidence. I do however do physical movement work with people sometimes and am aware of how easy it could be to damage the spine etc.

The opposite of reward is not punishment - it is "non reward"

Sallyinlancs
I understand you mean you want your dog off lead in places next to feilds with livestock rather than wanting to walk thru the feilds off lead - am I right there

You say your dog is perfect on a long line but as soon as the lead comes off so do the brain cells (I have the opposite problem - dog who decided not to think when lead is on!!)
How about you work on shortning the lead a bit at a time till you only have a wee token bit cliped onto the coller??