I find the training method strange TBH.

It's like setting up your dog to actually do something wrong, knowing he will do it then be punished for it !!

That's like putting 10 bottles of alcohol in front of an alcoholic, then smacking them when they go for a bottle !

Your dog has that temptation (DRIVE) to chase, so by putting him in front of it, then punishing him when he does it, in my eyes is cruel !

Sally is aguing that e-collars are not punitive and therefore
not `bad` as (if you`d care to read the thread title) assumed by people who use positive training methods.
I see you have the same breed of dog? Do you have training success using the same methods? Having read your previous post, I assume not.

I agree. My dog had escaped from my garden and enjoyed the self-reward of chasing livestock while very young. MY FAULT entirely! On another occasion he was off lead and a sheep nearby had escaped its fencing which I hadn't noticed. MY FAULT again. Another time the dog was off lead and a livestock field a whole field away. My dog bolted across the field and into the livestock field. MY FAULT again!

I have made some really BAD decisions as you can see and it's MY OWN fault that my dog developed his compulsive obsession. I am under no illusion about that. I'm extremely sorry about it but that doesn't help my dog. Since there is a livestock field right outside my backdoor as well as many near to all the places we walk, I believe that keeping him on-lead is not enough.

JUST IN CASE for some reason he should escape his lead or the back garden, I prefer to work at getting him to ignore his compulsion and obey my commands (like 'stay close' or 'leave it') EVEN while off lead AND within sight of livestock. I would rather have this control over him just in case, than have him shot if he should ever come loose.

Tell you what Nickyboy - find someone proportionately the same size as you in respect to your dog and get them to shove you firmly down when you`re not expecting it. Then ask for the number of a good chiropactor.

My NI is only 12 weeks, the dogs i have been discussing are my Lurcher Cassie and Husky Kiska. I use methods set out by people like Shaun Ellis and Jan fennell, using key gestures to confirm my leadership within the pack. I have great success with my methods.

Not exactly arguing that they're not punitive, but that I didn't use it as a simple punishment or aversion therapy on its own without any positive instruction on DESIRED behaviour offered as an alternative and opportunity for praise.

In other words, it was not a case of Do something unwanted - get a painful shock, as some have implied is the only way to use an e-collar. To MY mind, that is MISuse - and unfair and unkind to the dog.

cant be any harder than being hit by a rugby player every weekend - or taking out at the knees playing footie for my vets team- and you use the phrase when youre not expecting it like people who use the older traditional method of sitting thump there dogs on the back they dont they push down in a measured way

so do you know of spinal injuries caused by people using the old method of making a dog sit - inidentally i wont and didnt teach my dog that way , but will when they ignore me, by pushing not whacking down.

Please do not assume because I have put my dog in a sit, that I have 'shoved him down firmly when he's not expecting it' or used the 'shove the dog's back' method. I am not as harsh with my dog as you seem to be making out.

Shaun Elis is a wolf expert, not a dog trainer, and as for Jan bloomin Fennell don't get me started on her

JF theories are outdated wolf pack theories ,we are talking dogs, not wolves .

Have you read his book??? How do you think he became interested in wolves?

Besides dogs and wolves are much more closely related then any other wild species and its domesticated counterpart.

Monty Roberts based his methods on mustangs but they work with TB race horses. We know dogs are not wolves but alot of the drives and instints are still apparant. A group of dogs left without human leadership will still form a pack sturcture very similar to a wolf pack.