I was indeed using the pm system yesterday evening and must admit that I'm mildly amused that you appear to be aware of this. It wasn't to a.p. though as you seem to think.


I've already conceded in the o.p. that it can be turned up to a point that is painful, but this doesn't necessarily mean that it's always painful on all levels.


The post would have been unreadable if I'd repeated Locky's past history, but it's been quite eventful.

I'm not talking about constantly wearing an E-collar so as to be able to walk alongside a main road or through a field of sheep without a lead, but using it as training method to teach/proof a behaviour when other methods have been unsuccessful after determined consistent effort over a prolonged period of time.

I don't often reply on these topics, because, as said, it raises temperatures quite a lot!

A really well thought out original post though, although I haven't had time to read it fully, but it's prompted me to post a couple of thoughts.

Electric collars shouldn't be used by the general public, only under the guidance or by a qualified expert, and therein lies the problem, the vast majority of dog trainers just aren't qualified. You can buy qualifications off the internet, and who would police them?

Why do I think this? Because I've seen several dogs with severe behavioural problems benefit with long term training and shock collars formed part of that, as did pinch collars. The ONLY alternatives for these dogs were either to be put to sleep, or to be taken on by an experienced trainer who could handle their problems 24/7 without the need to use a shock collar as an aid. There are problems with both those, the first is a bit obvious, the second, well, how many problem dogs are there, particularly from rescue where it's uncertain how their problems have escalated, and then see how many you think will find homes with experienced dog handlers, it just ain't gonna happen.

I know that won't be popular, and yes, there are other ways of training dogs, etc, etc, but these dog owners were not lazy, they attended regular training, but simply did not have the timing and handling skills away from a training environment to deal with these dogs. One of them was so unpredictable you could really have argued it should never have been rehomed, particularly to such a weak dog handler, but then that's an issue for the rescue organisations.

The other reason I'm not hugely concerned about shock collars being used in the right circumstances, is we buy all sorts of training devices that are acceptable, and yet they too cause pain. Many of the head collars clamp around the muzzle, causing pain and discomfort, and a poorly fitted/made harness can rub and cause pain; dogs can't tell us this is the case, sometimes their behaviour alters because of a halti/harness, trying to get them off, and yet they are still deemed acceptable?? Citronella collars are no better than shock collars, dogs have such a strong sense of smell I think it's a horrible device, and yet in many peoples' minds it seems somehow more acceptable??

I'm firmly on the fence with this one, I have seen the benefits of them being used correctly, but they are open to such misuse is it worth it??

I see your point, and to a certain extent I agree (my contradicting thoughts again) but:

I know from training that if I can get Locky's attention, there's a good chance I can get him to do what I want him to do - if I can get his head up/around and looking at me, I give a smile, open my arms wide, shout a friendly "Come". I start trotting backwards encouraging him. I might put my hands into my pocket a say "what's this" or start to rustle the wrapper of a Mattesons Sausauge (he knows what's in my pockets, and he knows what follows that rustle -that's Pavlov right?).

I've often thought "if only I had an extendable arm and could reach out and lure him to look at me" or, "if I could just somehow break his focus on whatever it is he's focusing on... ".

And then I read the term "mammalian startle response" which seemed to correspond with what I was already thinking - if I could break his attention, I would then be able to redirect him onto what I want him to do.

I do admit though that I'm still of the opinion that not all sensation caused by electric shock is painful, but I don't know whether or not that would be sufficient to break a dog's focus.

I don't actually want an Electric, Vibrating or Spray collar. I'm asking on principle whether it can ever be justified, or never ever at all whatsoever. I've used my own experiences to describe how I came to my personal (seemingly contradictory) conclusion.

Not doing too well on the other e-collar thread then Adam?
M - Why do you want to hurt your dog? Don`t you like your dog?

... locky is an old man.. his behaviour is partly his genetic makeup.... he is in his twighlight years and you want to train by pain rather than except he is what he is..its manageable, but imo you want what a dog thats 'aceptable' to you not to work with him!

of course the collars hurt to work..how else would they....otherwise the same people would use a noise or clicker

im still convinced this thread was concocted by you and ap!!!

i hope your next dog has no northern heritage for its sake...

I did go on a bit didn't it !

I read your post, went out for a walk, came back and read it again.

Some interesting points. I agree with much of what you say, disagree with a little, and have contradictory views on some. I will though come back to this to read again.

I made it !

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

You seemed to be asking for a solution, in no way did you write hypothetically or just as an example - from what I can see - so I gave you a simple and effective alternative on the basis of what your OP said.

Oh look an ecollar thread.

Personally, I think that there are circumstances where ecollars are beneficial. Where all other training has failed and the dog is at risk of losing its life or having its life severly impeeded, then I don't have a problem with an experienced trainer using one for say chase recall retraining.

I have seen ecollars used, several very badly, with bad to horendous results, others well with fabulous results.

As with any method it is often more about the "user" or trainer then the method, as to its success. Though Canine genetics and past experiences also dictate the hardiness of a behaviour and therefore strength of retraining excercise required.

As to whether they hurt. I have now tried several on including freedom fences and they vary (most have many levels remember), from no sensation whatsoever, to a mild, vague, rather odd, almost pleasant (like a tender tickling stroke) tingling, through to a seriously horrid, very unpleasant, yes I would say painfull, jolt that I would have no wish to repeat.

My methods of dog training are based around tugs, toys, food and clicker. But if I had a dog that had its life impeed or endangered by failing to respond to any of these techniques, then I would consider an ecollar.

I wouldn't really describe the other thread as being constructive, and there was certainly a change in tone on it recently for some reason.

If I hadn't have laid out what I did here, it's unlikely I would have gone to the effort to write it out on paper, and I do think it could be interesting (for myself at least) to come back to this at a later date to see whether or not I'm still of the same view.

I've had a quick look at the site you linked to, and read "The principle of an electric shock collar is to cause the dog pain ..... I've laid out why I'm of the opinion that not all sensation caused by an electric shock must equate to pain, so my starting position is somewhat different to his. I will though go back for a better read later.