i dont think there is ever a need

with the snakes i would prefer to train something, like to get the dogs to return to me and show me the direction the snake is in
anyway, mia is fear agressive so making her fear something would make her more likely to attack

if all methods failed (and i cant see how they can) and i felt i had to resort to punishments i would be more likely to consider something more hands on than a cowerdly remote control torture device

as for the lead thing
i am working on mias recal but it is slow
she does disapear into the sunset, she finds her way out the smallest gaps in fences, she is the fastist dog i have ever seen and can go from fully focused on you to 100m away in a split second
she is so reactive if she sees something to chace when she is doing the loo she will actualy run off with a poo hanging out her bum (sorry)
she dosent care if i run away or go and hide

i am working on her recal in as safe places as i can find, but she is so reactive that it is possible that she will spend most of her life on lead
thats cruel is it? i consider it kinder than getting in a fight with a gsd, hit by a car or shot by a farmer

I don't have time to read this entire thread, so I appologize if my post is redundant.

I too think the only use for a ecollar would be for snake training, but only in the hands of a qualified trainer and only if the dogs life was imminently endangered. I wouldn't bother to snake train my dog because when we walk in areas where snakes are prevalent, I keep her on lead.

There is a rattlesnake vaccine, but it isnt' very effective.
and there are risks, as with any vaccine, the idea is you would give the dog the shots pre-exposure to any venom, with the idea that they may NEVER be exposed to the venom. Again, I choose not to do it. But if I lived on a ranch I might rethink that stance.

I believe, from reading his book a few years ago, the CM often takes multiple members of his pack out to the Hollywood hills for an off lead run. While it isn't likely that the dogs would encounter a rattler at his inner city center, the chances increase 100 fold in the hills of hollywood. So I could see why this would be necessary.

Though I question the need to snake train a dog that is elderly and obviously arthritic and unable to withstand those long runs anymore.... I mean I know pits are tenacious, but it really feels like this was just a photo op.

As for it being our responsibility to protect our dogs from snakes, you are right! I see snake training as part of that responsibility. You can't always predict when and where a snake will appear. So what do you do? Keep your dog on a leash all the time and stick to inner city walks? I think all dogs deserve the right to a good off lead romp in a natural beautiful area. Sometimes, and in some places, that comes with a risk of snakes. There are things you can do to minimize the risk, but not eliminate it. Snake training is just another precaution.
You in the UK are fortunate to have so many naturally beautiful areas where you can walk your dogs offlead and allow them to enjoy that freedom, some of us aren't so lucky.

I do agree that the use of the Ecollar is far too common and far too available here to the average know nothing pet owner. I was at the dog park with my dog and a lady came in with two large dogs with ecollars on. I asked what they were for and she said to stop aggression. I was shocked that someone could be so ignorant, to shock a dog for aggressing towards another dog, is only going to make it aggress more towards that dog or any other that he percieves is causing the pain. I left before my dog became a guinea pig for her cruel little experiment. I also have a coworker who bought a shock collar for her then nine week old labrador puppy to stop her crying in her crate at night. I had many a long discussion with her about positive training methods, and even gave her the book the power of positive dog training, which she promised to read but I later found shoved in a drawer. Some people just won't listen. Oh, and the ecollar didn't ever stop her crying in her crate. Made it worse in fact.

Oh, and as for teaching a leave it command, I think all dogs should know a leave it command as it can be life threatening. But when it comes to snakes, using leave it assumes that you actually see the snake before the dog gets to it and before the snake strikes at the dog. All this can happen in the blink of an eye. Often, you never see the snake at all.

Dogsey isn't letting me edit my post. Life Threatening should read life saving!

Deepest condolences Louise, I will pay especial attention to the pony when I go back to look at your vids later on. I am so sorry

He doesn't train OTHER people's dogs in the basic obedience. I am sure he does his own Shona

Sometimes it CAN take long to train a dog to do something, however brilliant a trainer you are. I think the implication in this case with Daddy was that time was not of the essence. Daddy or another dog was going to get killed because they were showing no fear of the rattlesnake. This, in my opinion, was an extremely dangerous situation and I personally think, as much as I HATE the thought even of using an e-collar, here it was justified to get a speedy result. I understand it took 10 minutes for Daddy to do an enormous circle of what on camera looked like hundreds of feet, but was probably only about 50 feet in reality, around the snake and leave well alone.

Yes, this is true Shona about many owners of sibes and mals, but I personally think it IS possible to let them off lead in wide open spaces. It is a question of having the confidence in the first place, when they are very young, to do so. Louise has already told me she just wouldn't want to take the risk. My opinion is that it is a risk worth taking, and with my mixes of those breeds, I have done so, with great success. I have spoken to several other pure husky and mal owners, some who do let them off, some who don't, but all the ones who do say the same thing - their recall is poor, very poor, but they do not gallop off into the sunset as is thought. They just do not come when you call them.

I don't think a mal or sibe exists with no prey drive, do they ?? !

Personally Shona, my back garden is not much bigger than Tai !! He can just about get into a canter from one side of the conservatory to the next before hitting next door's fence !

I remember Cesar demonstrating the collar on his hand before he put it on Daddy. I seem to remember that he had it on the lowest setting, or at least a low one, but Trouble's memory is better than mine, and she might be able to confirm this.

Thank you for explaining this Tassle.

Sorry Ramble, I disagree. Dogs are not cuddly toys. They are programmed to chase things, just like cats. Did you know that domesticated cats kill well over a million song birds every year? My dog is raw fed. One of the best foods for a raw fed dog is whole rabbit. They are a pest round here, and it is perfectly natural for my dog to kill and eat a wild rabbit.