Dogsey

Have to say I've also seen dogs who've had a LEG amputated and who weren't in the least bit clumsy!

When I bred Griffons the breed standard was for docked tails so the puppies had their tails docked on the third day after their birth.

Care was always taken to dock between two tail vertibrae and the cut end was immediately dabbed with a styptic pen so there was no bleeding.

Did the puppies squirm and yelp? Yes, but not due to pain, just due to the fact that they had to be held firmly, gently but firmly in order to dock at the correct place and as quickly as possible, and puppies that age do not like being held still.

As soon as they were put back with their dam they went straight to feed as if nothing had happened.

If they had felt pain they would have carried on crying afterwards.

Obviously Griffons are not docked now but way back in those days all Griffon puppies were docked, as were many other breeds.

Now? I hate seeing non-working dogs with docked tails - there are two Dobes on the Moshav, both with tails docked almost to their anus and both with cropped ears, and it makes me feel sick when I see them.

I don't believe they don't feel pain, it's been proved babies in the womb feel pain so the idea at several days old they suddenly lose that feeling I cannot believe it.

That they go back to feeding makes sense when they are hurt they will seek comfort and at that age what is most comforting ? mum's milk I would think.

Malka, I found an interesting piece about the subject actually in between posting my last post and now.

http://www.onekind.org/uploads/publi...cking-dogs.pdf

Scroll down to the part about Puppies’ reaction to tail docking and Increased pain in neonatal animals. That's not just the opinion of those pro/anti docking, but based on real studies.

That's enough to confirm my suspicions that very young puppies do feel pain, regardless of what the breeder believes.

It's hard for me to believe that they don't feel it, either. But a small discomfort is really not the big issue here for me. It's the end result that I have the issue with. I don't think most dogs benefit from it. I think dogs need their tails.

Cats and dogs use their tails for communication and balance. It's also... a part of their body and there really are no benefits with non working dogs. So why do it? Because it looks good?

Same with ear cropping. Nearly no benefits, so why do it? Because you want to? Again, the sentiment "It's your dog, do what you want to with it". I'd not do it, but if others want to? Their right.

I mean it doesn't do lots of harm IMO, it doesn't shorten their lifespans, make them unhappy, or reduce their true quality of life so I guess on that note I should stop bitching.

And will!

It is HORRENDOUSLY painful for puppies to be docked; it is obscene and extremely cruel, but that aside, it also looks horrible. Dogs NEED tails for balance and communication, as mjfromga rightly says.

Just because it is "their dog" does not mean that you can mutilate it ... parents who abuse their children could equally say "it's my child, I will do what I want to it".

Can't feel it? Only the PUPPY could answer that truthfully. They used to operate on new babies without anaesthesia (maybe they still do?) on the basis that they 'couldn't feel pain'.

When they do that blood test by heel prick on new babies (for ketonuria etc) they say "a midwife will collect a sample of blood by pricking the baby’s heel using a special device and squeezing out a few drops of blood on to a card. The heel prick may be uncomfortable and the baby may cry, but it's all over very quickly."

Yeah right. The baby SCREAMS ITS HEAD OFF.

I went by what I was told by my then vet, and in those days [over 30 years ago] if the breed standard was met and the puppies were to be registered with the Kennel Club, they had to be docked.

Wasn't responding to you Malka. Was responding to Gnasher. Who seems to think as I do.

Apologies, Tang.