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Tass
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27-04-2012, 11:29 AM
Originally Posted by Dobermann View Post
Before each episode it says the whole many ways to train but they all agree its the owners...so maybe the point is just to show many "schools of thought" all agreeing its the attitudes of owners...
I think you're right, but I think that message in the programme gets a bit lost in everything else that is going on?

That message in however reinforced by showing that, so far, all the owners that completed their training have gone home and improved those same problematic dogs (the classic before/after angle).

However the lack of filming of them achieving that process with their own dogs adds to the erroneous impression that it can magically, and virtually instantaneously occur without any real work or effort.
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Azz
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29-04-2012, 07:01 PM
For those of you who haven't seen it, I emailed Mike about Hunter (and posted a thread about him in the Pastoral section) I also told him there were some questions in the thread, but think the reply is better suited in this thread.

The thread about Hunter can be found here: http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=167807

Hi Az

I have read a few of the questions and I will try to respond. When we see a dog such as a large Mastiff which is out of control and a handler that needs control and a tool which promotes that, such as the prong collar, then I think it is a good thing to use it. As with all equipment, when it is used correctly it provides not only control but safety and a much better life for the dog, for the handler and for the public. The prong collar, when used correctly, is much safer and much more humane than any chain choker or halty, which pulls the dog's head to the side. I have never in thirty five years witnessed any damage caused by the proper use of the prong collar.

The dogs on our facility are highly capable or carrying out any and all duties required of them. Although during filming our equipment was visible, in the field these dogs wear no collars whatsover.

During the filming of this program Hunter had just turned 8 months of age. He is now in active duty doing what he was bred and trained to do.

I have not watched all of the episodes on the BBC program but I have seen out of control dogs on the street, in public and I must say that the UK is not alone in the number of rising dog bites and altercations. I am also very aware that in many cases there is more concern for the dog's appearance of comfort than for human safety. Often, ill-informed opinions are passed by those who know nothing of the reality of what is taking place as fact or truth. People often think a visibly happy dog must be jumping around and that a dog which is not jumping is sad or under stress. In the case of our dogs such thoughts are erroneous. Our dogs are at a high level of training but those handling them in the show were not. It was obvious in the way the dogs responded to those handlers. It was our task to help those people who travelled so far and sacrificed their time and comfort to learn from us. It was necessary to show them - honestly - not only what we do but what they could do. I must say that some of the comments regarding the dogs' feelings and thoughts are of no consequence to any of us. People will be people and will speak of what they do not know or cannot understand. However, comments against those individuals who trained with us I find offensive. I am a firm believer that the Internet is a tool for the wise and a toy for the fool. I have nothing but respect and a heartfelt desire for continued success to those people who I had the honour of meeting and training with. No one will understand what we touched together and what we achieved together in our week together and a one hour TV show cannot possible reflect the depth of that experience. I do hope though that after going home and coming under not only the negative comments but also the positive ones, that they will draw closer to the dogs for which they travelled. For it is in these creatures that we find a comfort and a truth that many of us have forgotten or perhaps never knew. They did not climb the wall for me. They did not cross the water for me. They did it with and for the dog that was at their side and the dog that awaited their safe arrival back home. This unique deep bond between them and us (dog and man) can both strengthen and weaken us when we let emotion dictate over reason. I have enjoyed my brief moment with those that trained with us. I trust that we all have one common ground and that is the dog. We do not have to agree on anything except that there should be no mistreatment of a dog at any time. We must, however, know what we are seeing before we can know what we are saying. As for the level of training or where the dogs go, I cannot freely discuss that. I can assure you, however, that they are well looked after and lead productive, healthy lives. I hope this answers some of your questions. I also hope that anyone who decides to use any lead, any collar, or any piece of equipment, learns how to use it correctly. Nothing is gained in life by banning, outlawing, or always seeking apology for that which we do not understand.

Regards,

Mike McConnery
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leadstaffs
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29-04-2012, 07:07 PM
I like this a good reply
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Lucky Star
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29-04-2012, 07:18 PM
It is very good of him to reply (he doesn't have to) and interesting to hear his thoughts.

I feel very uncomfortable because his arguments for use of the prong collar are exactly the same as arguments for use of e-collars, which have been aired on this forum - and argued against in earnest. "When used correctly" "safety" "better life for the dog""never witnessed any damage" etc.

Where is the positive training for this dog?
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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29-04-2012, 07:21 PM
I dont!

So it sounds that yes the mastif who had bitten several times - once down to the bone and another time biting a womans face enough for her to be dripping in blood - was then trained with a prong collar
I am very concerned for the public in that area if that is the case
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Moobli
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29-04-2012, 07:23 PM
Excellent reply I feel. Thanks for asking the questions Azz.
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madisondobie
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29-04-2012, 07:26 PM
So it would seem that if you are training a dog to go into dangerous situations in which it needs to trust its handler the best way is with a prong collar, i realise you don't have all positives in dog training and understand a raised voice can be an aversive as can other things but the prongs must hurt or at the very least be uncomfortable otherwise the dog would just ignore it.
I must admit it has confused me a little but maybe thats because i don't think prong collars should be used full stop on working dogs or pets i know im in the minority - if your only job is to train dogs 24/7 why would you need to use an aversive that hurts you have much more time available to train without it.
Just my thoughts - i don't usually reply to threads but have to admit i am genuinely confused about the difference between the use of a prong collar and the use of another collar that cannot be mentioned.
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leadstaffs
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29-04-2012, 07:28 PM
I think what he is saying is that there are horses for courses. The thing that he respected was that although misguided the girl with the big dog loved the dog and wanted to do the best for the dog and did not know how.
The only thing I don't like about the program is it does not give enough time or information on the real training thst they did there and spent too much time with the fluffy stuff.
The dog back in the uk will not have been trained witha prong coller but loked like it had a 1/2 check collor on at the end of the program
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madisondobie
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29-04-2012, 07:32 PM
Originally Posted by leadstaffs View Post
I think what he is saying is that there are horses for courses. The thing that he respected was that although misguided the girl with the big dog loved the dog and wanted to do the best for the dog and did not know how.
The only thing I don't like about the program is it does not give enough time or information on the real training thst they did there and spent too much time with the fluffy stuff.
The dog back in the uk will not have been trained witha prong coller but loked like it had a 1/2 check collor on at the end of the program
I think it was a prong collar, went back and watched it 3 times and its a prong, i can see why she would use it as the trainers that she worked with all used them so if you were impressed at how well trained the dogs were of course you would use the same tools and techniques at home.
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youngstevie
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29-04-2012, 10:16 PM
I liked his reply, I wouldn't use pronged collars on mine, but I can see what he is saying and I think he has been honest in that reply.
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