I don't know how they all no longer raid the bin, except it is unusual and not the norm, Denise. If you say it has happened like this for you, that's great but it will not be like that for every dog owner.

Dr Ian Dunbar explains the problem as "Owner Absent Problems". John Fisher also mentioned them.

I would concede that with a few dogs, maybe sensitive breeds (you have collies mostly, right?) it may work. But it really does not work that way with them all.

The dogs realise the owner is not at home one day, and raid the bin.

Sorry to disagree, again; have we reached a stalemate?

Wys
x

...

You may, as a dog trainer, prefer Method A, however if you know that this method is not feasible (for various reasons) for the owner then, if we look at what is in the DOG'S BEST INTERESTS you may have to use Method B.

You have to ADAPT to suit the individual dog, owner(s) environment and that is where there is no substitute for EXPERIENCE.

For multiquote, you select that on each post, and scroll down and then at the end do "Reply" and each post should come up on the reply... HTh?



I don't know how they all no longer raid the bin, except it is unusual and not the norm, Denise. If you say it has happened like this for you, that's great but it will not be like that for every dog owner.

Dr Ian Dunbar explains the problem as "Owner Absent Problems". John Fisher also mentioned them.

I would concede that with a few dogs, maybe sensitive breeds (you have collies mostly, right?) it may work. But it really does not work that way with them all.

The dogs realise the owner is not at home one day, and raid the bin.

Sorry to disagree, again; have we reached a stalemate?

Wys
x

....

...In her more recent shows I see her being yanked around by dogs and letting them get away with all kinds of inappropiate behaviours. I feel it seems she so badly wants to praise the dog that it doesn't matter what the dog is doing?

This IS dangerous. it is equally wrong to praise/soothe inappriopiate behaviour as it is to bully/force acceptable behaviour.

I would guess at at least partly luck to be perfectly honest Denise. That method stops most dogs from doing it when somebody is around but a hell of a lot of dogs still do it when it's safe (ie nobody there). About half the people I know who have dogs have a problem with their dog going in the bin or taking food off counters. No amount of shouting at or smacking the dog has stopped them. Not even when the punishment is delivered while the dog is in the act. Rupert only stopped this behaviour after pulling a cupboard down on himself which scared him so badly that he hid under the bed for the rest of the day.

It's an issue that, imo, is much easier to manage than to train out if you've got a dog that learns only to do it when you're not there. I'm all in favour of picking my battles though and this isn't high on my list

Can I ask when you say NOT NORMAL can I ask what your findings are based on? How many dogs do you personally know who do or do not raid the bin?

You see, we train around 80 dogs a week and raiding the bin rarely comes up - though I will be sure to question people tonight! I believe that we are now in the realms of having trained 10,000 dogs in the last 19 years, and I can honestly say that raiding the bin is a relativly rare problem in my experience. or maybe it just goes unreported? I am fascinated Please tell ....?

I didn't say never did I? Maybe I did - its been a tough day.

I think that raiding the bin is an emergency as well. As are many things that an animal does for the very first time that is undesirable.

So what would you do then?

Thank you for all these interesting responses!

I feel we have gone a little off track however? I think we all agree that (to a point?) all methods have varing degrees and to some extent many are acceptable so long as a dog is being treated fairly and not being trained through fear, anger or frustration.

My original point was:
Just as when CM's methods were being regulary promoted through the media, now with the pushing of VS and other "positive" trainers are we facing the same confusion and potential risks?

Example 1: Owner tries "Alpha roll" after seeing it on TV, Dog gets stressed, trust compromised-bites owner.

Example 2: Owner reads article about positive training, worried that any jerking of lead or verbal correction is deemed cruel therefore when the dog lunges out or pulls and food is not a big enough motivator they lose control- dog pulls owner into road

Example 3. Why we need a "Balanced approach"
Reading an article explaining Sound aversion an owner hides behind a bush and uses a water spray to train the dog to stay away from the vegetable patch- This is a method/product now deemed unacceptable however used correctly it is a good training tool, harmless to the dog and very effective.

I'm pleased to hear that other magazines cover more widely however it does seem that we often only get one sided views.

I visited VS website yesterday as I was interested that Channel 11 is re-running a lot of her shows which still feature "Aversion methods". VS is very keen to express that she no longer uses these techniques..??? I always felt the methods she chose were the " more accepted" ones? Whats wrong with a few "Ah-Ahs" or Cans of Air?

In her more recent shows I see her being yanked around by dogs and letting them get away with all kinds of inappropiate behaviours. I feel it seems she so badly wants to praise the dog that it doesn't matter what the dog is doing?

This IS dangerous. it is equally wrong to praise/soothe inappriopiate behaviour as it is to bully/force acceptable behaviour. Also to be "too soft" on inappropiate behaviours can build tolerance in your dog so that by the time you really mean it you have to resort to stronger methods in order to get the effect....The word again...Balance

I respect your experience, but it doesnt match my own. .

I have around 30 good friends with multiple dogs in most cases and to the best of my knowledge only one of them has to barricade the bin off!

If the majority of people on here do then I am stunned!

....