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HiHoSilver
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Location: Limerick Eire
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07-04-2011, 06:29 PM

Side effects of neutering

After a post a while back in which I had to cry ignorance I've taken my time to research the subject.
Some rescues are neutering infant animals these days.I appreciate where they are coming from but if they're not sure or don't have the resources to make sure the animal will be neutered at an appropriate age they have no business homing pups and kittens.Do the job properly or don't do it!
6 months is a MINIMUM age to neuter.It's a reasonable compromise with only a 10% chance of a risk to health from an immature animal undergoing what is in fact major surgery.
The big risk is that the urinary tract,closely linked with the sexual organs in more ways than proximity,will be affected.
THAT is the risk.Growth plates in the joints are NOT affected.
Male animals castrated before sexual maturity will not develop the thickening of the neck,brought on by testosterone for display purposes,if they are neutered before maturity.
Growth plates can only be affected by trauma.Thought you were full of it Joedee and I was right.
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smokeybear
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07-04-2011, 07:01 PM
http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

It is wise to research thoroughly......................

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongT...uterInDogs.pdf

Also, some of us do not rely on an internet trawl, some of us have SEEN the effects of early neutering and what it can do to the physique of animals..........
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JoedeeUK
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07-04-2011, 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by HiHoSilver View Post
After a post a while back in which I had to cry ignorance I've taken my time to research the subject.
Some rescues are neutering infant animals these days.I appreciate where they are coming from but if they're not sure or don't have the resources to make sure the animal will be neutered at an appropriate age they have no business homing pups and kittens.Do the job properly or don't do it!
6 months is a MINIMUM age to neuter.It's a reasonable compromise with only a 10% chance of a risk to health from an immature animal undergoing what is in fact major surgery.
The big risk is that the urinary tract,closely linked with the sexual organs in more ways than proximity,will be affected.
THAT is the risk.Growth plates in the joints are NOT affected.
Male animals castrated before sexual maturity will not develop the thickening of the neck,brought on by testosterone for display purposes,if they are neutered before maturity.
Growth plates can only be affected by trauma.Thought you were full of it Joedee and I was right.
Really

Can you quote the veterinary studies that proof this ???

You may or may not be aware that the catholic Church used to castrate orphaned male babies to produce castrati

Although castration did little to damage a castrato's intellect, it did pose serious health and emotional problems. Most castrati suffered from the effects of developmental hypogonadism, including infantile penis and an underdeveloped prostate. They also had more developed subcutaneous fat than the normal male, fat deposits localized on the hips, buttocks and breast areas, fatty deposits on the eyelids, and skin that sometimes appeared wrinkled or swollen. The arms and legs of many castrati were unusually long as compared to the torso (the long bones never stopped growing), which made them look distorted.
The same applies to most mammals including dogs so I am not as you so rudely wrote"full of it" & you are er...... still wrong

Perhaps you missed this veterinary study ??

Early Spay-Neuter Considerations

Early Spay-Neuter Considerations
for the Canine Athlete
- Chris Zink DVM, PhD

To neuter or not to neuter...
Those of us with responsibility for the health of canine athletes need to continually read and evaluate new scientific studies to ensure that we are taking the most appropriate care of our performance dogs. This article provides evidence through a number of recent studies to suggest that veterinarians and owners with canine athletes should revisit the standard protocol in which all dogs that are not intended for breeding are spayed and neutered at or before 6 months of age.

Orthopedic Considerations
A study by Salmeri et al in 1991 found that bitches spayed at 7 weeks grew significantly taller than those spayed at 7 months, and that those spayed at 7 months had significantly delayed closure of the growth plates than those not spayed (or presumably spayed after the growth plates had closed).(1) A study of 1444 Golden Retrievers performed in 1998 and 1999 also found bitches and dogs spayed and neutered at less than a year of age were significantly taller than those spayed or neutered at more than a year of age.(2) The sex hormones promote the closure of the growth plates, so the bones of dogs or bitches neutered or spayed before puberty continue to grow. Dogs that have been spayed or neutered well before puberty can frequently be identified by their longer limbs, lighter bone structure, narrow chests and narrow skulls. This abnormal growth frequently results in significant alterations in body proportions and particularly the lengths (and therefore weights) of certain bones relative to others. For example, if the femur has achieved its genetically determined normal length at 8 months when a dog gets spayed or neutered, but the tibia, which normally stops growing at 12 to 14 months of age continues to grow, then an abnormal angle may develop at the stifle. In addition, with the extra growth, the lower leg below the stifle becomes heavier (because it is longer), causing increased stresses on the cranial cruciate ligament. These structural alterations may be the reason why at least one recent study has shown that spayed and neutered dogs have a higher incidence of CCL rupture.(3) Another recent study showed that dogs spayed or neutered before 5 1/2 months had a significantly higher incidence of hip dysplasia than those spayed or neutered after 5 1/2 months of age.(4) Breeders of purebred dogs should be concerned about these two studies and particularly the latter, because they might make incorrect breeding decisions if they consider the hip status of pups they bred that were spayed or neutered early.

Cancer Considerations
There is a slightly increased risk of mammary cancer if a female dog has one heat cycle. But my experience indicates that fewer canine athletes develop mammary cancer as compared to those that damage their cranial cruciate ligaments. In addition, only about 30 % of mammary cancers are malignant and, as in humans, when caught and surgically removed early the prognosis is very good.(5) Since canine athletes are handled frequently and generally receive prompt veterinary care, mammary cancer is not quite the specter it has been in the past. A retrospective study of cardiac tumors in dogs showed that there was a 5 times greater risk of hemangiosarcoma, one of the three most common cancers in dogs, in spayed bitches than intact bitches and a 2.4 times greater risk of hemangiosarcoma in neutered dogs as compared to intact males.(6) A study of 3218 dogs demonstrated that dogs that were neutered before a year of age had a significantly increased chance of developing bone cancer, a cancer that is much more life-threatening than mammary cancer, and that affects both genders.(7) A separate study showed that neutered dogs had a two-fold higher risk of developing bone cancer.( Despite the common belief that neutering dogs helps prevent prostate cancer, at least one study suggests that neutering provides no benefit.(9)

Behavioral Considerations
The study that identified a higher incidence of cranial cruciate ligament rupture in spayed or neutered dogs also identified an increased incidence of sexual behaviors in males and females that were neutered early.(3) Further, the study that identified a higher incidence of hip dysplasia in dogs neutered or spayed before 5 1/2 months also showed that early age gonadectomy was associated with an increased incidence of noise phobias and undesirable sexual behaviors.(4) A recent report of the American Kennel Club Canine Health Foundation reported significantly more behavioral problems in spayed and neutered bitches and dogs. The most commonly observed behavioral problem in spayed females was fearful behavior and the most common problem in males was aggression.(10) Yet another study showed that unneutered males were significantly less likely than neutered males to suffer cognitive impairment when they were older.(11) Females were not evaluated in that study.

Other Health Considerations
A number of studies have shown that there is an increase in the incidence of female urinary incontinence in dogs spayed early.(12) Interestingly, neutering also has been associated with an increased likelihood of urethral sphincter incontinence in males.(13) This problem is an inconvenience, and not usually life-threatening, but nonetheless one that requires the dog to be medicated for life. A health survey of several thousand Golden Retrievers showed that spayed or neutered dogs were more likely to develop hypothyroidism.(2) This study is consistent with the results of another study in which neutering and spaying was determined to be the most significant gender-associated risk factor for development of hypothyroidism.(14) Infectious diseases were more common in dogs that were spayed or neutered at 24 weeks or less as opposed to those undergoing gonadectomy at more than 24 weeks.(15) Finally, the AKC-CHF report demonstrated a higher incidence of adverse reactions to vaccines in neutered dogs as compared to intact.(10)

For these reasons, I have significant concerns with spaying or neutering dogs before puberty, particularly for the canine athlete. And frankly, if something were healthier for the canine athlete, would we not also want that for pet dogs as well? But of course, there is the pet overpopulation problem. How can we prevent the production of unwanted dogs while still leaving the gonads to produce the hormones that are so important to canine growth and development? The answer is to perform vasectomies in males and tubal ligation in females, to be followed after maturity by ovariohysterectomy in females to prevent mammary cancer and pyometra. One possible disadvantage is that vasectomy does not prevent some unwanted behaviors associated with males such as marking and humping. On the other hand, it has been my experience that females and neutered males actively participate in these behaviors too. Really, training is the best solution for these issues. Another possible disadvantage is finding a veterinarian who is experienced in performing these procedures. Nonetheless, some do, and if the procedures were in greater demand, more veterinarians would learn them.

I believe it is important that we assess each situation individually. If a pet dog is going to live with an intelligent, well-informed family that understands the problem of pet overpopulation and can be trusted to keep the dog under their control at all times and to not breed it, I do not recommend spaying or neutering before 14 months of age. In the case of dogs that might be going to less vigilant families, vasectomy and tubal ligation will allow proper growth while preventing unwanted pregnancies.


References:
1. Salmeri KR, Bloomberg MS, Scruggs SL, Shille V.. Gonadectomy in immature dogs: effects on skeletal, physical, and behavioral development. JAVMA 1991;198:1193-1203
2. http://www.grca.org/healthsurvey.pdf
3. Slauterbeck JR, Pankratz K, Xu KT, Bozeman SC, Hardy DM. Canine ovariohysterectomy and orchiectomy increases the prevalence of ACL injury. Clin Orthop Relat Res. 2004 Dec;(429):301-5.
4. Spain CV, Scarlett JM, Houpt KA. Long-term risks and benefits of early-age gonadectomy in dogs. JAVMA 2004;224:380-387.
5. Meuten DJ. Tumors in Domestic Animals. 4th Edn. Iowa State Press, Blackwell Publishing Company, Ames, Iowa, p. 575
6. Ware WA, Hopper DL. Cardiac tumors in dogs: 1982-1995. J Vet Intern Med 1999 Mar-Apr;13(2):95-103
7. Cooley DM, Beranek BC, Schlittler DL, Glickman NW, Glickman LT, Waters D, Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2002 Nov;11(11):1434-40
8. Ru G, Terracini B, Glickman LT. Host related risk factors for canine osteosarcoma. Vet J. 1998 Jul;156(1):31-9.
9. Obradovich J, Walshaw R, Goullaud E. The influence of castration on the development of prostatic carcinoma in the dog. 43 cases (1978-1985). J Vet Intern Med 1987 Oct-Dec;1(4):183-7
10. http://www.akcchf.org/pdfs/whitepape...Conference.pdf
11. Hart BL. Effect of gonadectomy on subsequent development of age-related cognitive impairment in dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2001 Jul 1;219(1):51-6.
12. Stocklin-Gautschi NM, Hassig M, Reichler IM, Hubler M, Arnold S. The relationship of urinary incontinence to early spaying in bitches. J. Reprod. Fertil. Suppl. 57:233-6, 2001
13. Aaron A, Eggleton K, Power C, Holt PE. Urethral sphincter mechanism incompetence in male dogs: a retrospective analysis of 54 cases. Vet Rec. 139:542-6, 1996
14. Panciera DL. Hypothyroidism in dogs: 66 cases (1987-1992). J. Am. Vet. Med. Assoc., 204:761-7 1994
15. Howe LM, Slater MR, Boothe HW, Hobson HP, Holcom JL, Spann AC. Long-term outcome of gonadectomy performed at an early age or traditional age in dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2001 Jan 15;218(2):217-21.
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Tupacs2legs
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07-04-2011, 08:02 PM
sorry hiho ,that all seems a tad dubious to me.....
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HiHoSilver
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07-04-2011, 09:37 PM
Still full of it Joedee,I didn't internet trawl for MY conclusions,I went to visit zooligists(3) and two vet colleges for opinions.I asked what bad effects neutering had on immature animals.Results unanimous.It's not GOOD to neuter before sexual maturity but in the REAL world(not a place you are familiar with perhaps?Lucky you.) as long as the op is not done too early the risks are minimal and the bonuses in terms of no accidental litters immeasurable.Don't see any back up for your internet trawled vet report.Even if it's correct and the animal grew taller and with a narrow skull I must have missed any health issues relating to that.Might result in a 'thrown out with the rubbish' in a show ring but neutered animals aren't welcome there anyway.Apart from the universal 'absolute nonsense' reply I received from the boyos who TEACH vets their business,my own dogs give lie to it.Lazer,a show bred black lab,neutered at 6 months, is short and stocky with a broad skull.I took him to visit a couple of friends who are noted champ show lab judges for assessment.He passed with flying colours until they got to the part where the judge checks to ensure there's 2 in the bag.Quote "He won't set the world on fire but you wouldn't be embarassing yourself to take him in the ring if he was an entire."
Everyone with a brain on this forum knows where you coming from Joedee,I only worry for the newbies/novices who are taken in by your 'expert' baloney.
Did you look up Chris Zink's references?Don't believe you even understood his report.Even Zink admits mature neutering is only the option when an environment idealus is there.
Enough,back to ignore list.
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smokeybear
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07-04-2011, 09:41 PM
Might result in a 'thrown out with the rubbish' in a show ring but neutered animals aren't welcome there anyway

I am afraid you are misinformed, there are PLENTY of neutered canines who are not only NOT thrown out with the rubbish in the show ring, not only WELCOMED but often WIN!

And the studies quoted on this thread are by vets...................

Vets are a bit like dog trainers, they often disagree with each other!
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HiHoSilver
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07-04-2011, 09:57 PM
Quite so Smokey, experts disagree but as showing a dog is not supposed to be an ego inflating pursuit(ideally anyway) but to select breeding stock why would anyone take a neuter to a champ show?We show here under FCI rules and neuters are not accepted.If I remember correctly the KC demands special permission to show a neuter?I'll bet the real show people LOVE it when the neuters are there,no competition is there.According to Joedee they're distorted.And did YOU actually read through the reference documents?Go on,do it,educate yourself.
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smokeybear
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07-04-2011, 10:09 PM
Quite so Smokey, experts disagree but as showing a dog is not supposed to be an ego inflating pursuit(ideally anyway) but to select breeding stock why would anyone take a neuter to a champ show?We show here under FCI rules and neuters are not accepted.

Really? Well I showed a neuter in Eire last year and won! Remember showing a dog, neutered or not, demonstrates the quality of stock thrown by the sire/dam!

If I remember correctly the KC demands special permission to show a neuter?

The KC requires a permission to show ANY dog that has had ANY operation of any kind (if you read the monthly KC Gazette it lists these requests, the reasons and if the KC has granted permission to do so!

I'll bet the real show people LOVE it when the neuters are there,no competition is there.


You are quite right, I LOVE the fact there is no competition ROFLMAO and my dog beats several others!

I have OFTEN won with a neutered dog.

According to Joedee they're distorted.

No that is not what she said, she said that dogs neutered too EARLY suffer the effects on their development. Confirmed by Christine Zink and others.

And did YOU actually read through the reference documents?Go on,do it,educate yourself.

Yes and I did, I have been educating myself and others on the perils of early neutering for quite a number of years!
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Lionhound
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07-04-2011, 10:11 PM
Originally Posted by HiHoSilver View Post
Still full of it Joedee,I didn't internet trawl for MY conclusions,I went to visit zooligists(3) and two vet colleges for opinions.I asked what bad effects neutering had on immature animals.Results unanimous.It's not GOOD to neuter before sexual maturity but in the REAL world(not a place you are familiar with perhaps?Lucky you.) as long as the op is not done too early the risks are minimal and the bonuses in terms of no accidental litters immeasurable.Don't see any back up for your internet trawled vet report.Even if it's correct and the animal grew taller and with a narrow skull I must have missed any health issues relating to that.Might result in a 'thrown out with the rubbish' in a show ring but neutered animals aren't welcome there anyway.Apart from the universal 'absolute nonsense' reply I received from the boyos who TEACH vets their business,my own dogs give lie to it.Lazer,a show bred black lab,neutered at 6 months, is short and stocky with a broad skull.I took him to visit a couple of friends who are noted champ show lab judges for assessment.He passed with flying colours until they got to the part where the judge checks to ensure there's 2 in the bag.Quote "He won't set the world on fire but you wouldn't be embarassing yourself to take him in the ring if he was an entire."
Everyone with a brain on this forum knows where you coming from Joedee,I only worry for the newbies/novices who are taken in by your 'expert' baloney.
Did you look up Chris Zink's references?Don't believe you even understood his report.Even Zink admits mature neutering is only the option when an environment idealus is there.
Enough,back to ignore list.
Why the attitude mate........we all make the best choices for our dogs. You feel the neutering is right others disagree.
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Tupacs2legs
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07-04-2011, 10:15 PM
Originally Posted by Lionhound View Post
Why the attitude mate........we all make the best choices for our dogs. You feel the neutering is right others disagree.
hiho seems to be a bit agitated in general today
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