I really hope that anyone new to this forum & reading this thread manages to get to the end & to these last few posts. They're what dog training is all about ~ the enjoyment, fun, trust & bond that you can have with your dog

Anyone that chooses to go down the "dark route" is missing out on sooo much.

Thats just it and I really dont think you can explain in words the bond and understanding you get between you by using these methods until you try it. There is a stark difference between having a dog come back to you because they have to and its the best of two evils compared to the dog that genuinley wants to be returning to you with a great expression to boot

I clicker trained Cherry with regards to her reactivity to other dogs. She is very badly sighted now sadly but today she met a small Poodle she hadn't met before and was really happy and confident to have a sniff and her tail was wagging at full speed. I thought she may be getting a bit too excited so I clicked her and then she turned and sat facing me waiting for her treat.

This from a dog that used to react to other dogs at 30 feet away. Postive rewards work but they are not instant enough sadly for some owners. We all want the easy fix but does it work long-term and is it in the dog's (and owner's) best interests?

well only on my own humble experience, I'd say the few attempts it takes using +R leaves a far more reliable and long lasting impression on the dog (and hence owner/lifestyle) and this is where the 'aversive trainer' is short-changing people, thier dogs and their own potential.

Yes ma'am you are right, I would (never have) used a shock-only collar. If I couldn't find a vibrate-only I would either get one that has a vibrate only or tone only OPTION, but I would NEVER use the shock mode!!

I would also NEVER strap one to a dogs' rear to teach a sit or shock to teeach a dog agility or come both are supposed to be fun for the dog, like many here I like my dogs to learn that comming is the best thing in the qorld & no matter what they have done bad that they have gotten in trouble for, when they come to me they always get something positive out of it weather it be praise or a treat.

Because of that OC, when I call an adversive such as no or leave it, they imediately come bounding back to me.

Very true

Wys
x

Indeed, dog training should be about the enjoyable experience, communication between species and a certain sort of excitement that peeps can get with this

I have had shivers run down my spine at times when dog training, and it's been because there are times when you and the dog are dancing together and it's just magic.

Those who advocate force have no idea about this and miss out completely.

Wys
x

In case anyone's interested I've posted a general discussion thread about shock collars here: http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=142886 - as it seems many of us are discussing them here and perhaps some of us would like another option.

Hi again

Re sep anxiety/Kelly video

Sep anxiety is a real problem for many dogs and owners, its very hard to fix in some cases and unless the owner has weeks or months off work to gradually desensitise the dog to being left seems not to respond to conventional methods very well.
I'm seeing more and more cases of sep anxiety, partly due to peoples fluctacting hours in the recession so the dog is used to them at home then they get a job and leave it behind.
It can be a real issue because not only does it impact on the dog and owner but also the neighbours! Many dogs with sep anxiety are rehomed, many of these get pts as they are hard to rehome and run out of space/time at the rescue, so it can be life or death fr some dogs!
I have dealt with it in the past by using the place command to keep the dog away from the owner and build confidence.

I emailed Kelly (video) to ask her opinion on it as she is more experienced than me! I'm sure many pro trainers do this.

She replied via email then did a video! The best thing about the video (and videos in general) is that even if someone who doesn't know me or Kelly or have our contact details can access the free advice on there via youtube and help there dog.

This brings me to a good point. I have often been accused of in it for the money. Two points about that

Seeing as I get quick results (couple of sessions) and charge by the hour this clearly doesn't make sense!

Also I have put a lot of advice about the specifics of training behaviours/resolving behaviour problems on here and numerouse other places. I have at times essentially advised myself out of business!
To say I'm in it for the money is thus a bit short sighted.

This seems to be the same with a lot of e collar people, Kelly has video playlists on youtube for example showing the start to finish of various dogs!

So really we're in it for the dogs!

Aggresison/reprogramming

Because of the specif behaviours I use to reprograme aggressive dogs I change the dogs behaviour on a very deep level!
Down/leave/move away are all very much the opposite of attack! By repeatedly presenting the dog with its trigger stimulus and causing it to perform the total opposite behaviour we change the associations/emotions/and chemical reactions associated with aggression!
This is very much like NLP with humans (typically used for nervousness).

It's so effective because we are changing core behaviours/reactions instead of scraping the surface. You essentially making the dog think differently as opposed to act differently. Of course at first they just act different but then rapidly move onto thinking differently.

If you doubt the effectiveness of this just compare your own (long drawn out) experiences of resolving aggression to mine.

Adam

hi Adam, im not against punishing or correcting a dog. and if a small amount of pain or discomfort gives the dog a better life after then i can understand that.
but if someone came to you to have there dog trained and time, money and effort were not an issue, take as long as it needs what ever it costs what ever the owner has to do they will do it, would you rather try other methods or still go straight for the e collar, im genuinely interested.
you didnt answer my other question about speed over happyness, sorry my spelling sucks too

scotty