It's like that scene in "Bingo" where the dog ends up in court and has to choose between the horrible evil clown and the nice boy who cared for him.

I've just realised I've called you a horrible evil clown there - oops

Of course you give the treat/toy to them, that is their REWARD for coming back, NOT requiring to cease pain to show them the way
OMG you do not need to use a e-fence, my OH's Bull Arab has eaten through wooden fences, and used his force to open colourbond gates and panels, and NOT ONCE have we needed to use e-fencing, we NEEDED to MAKE SURE the fence was more secure, as a result he doesn't get out any more, not just going around zapping him because he is a big doofus that knows how to get out when there is a weakness in the boundary fence
The dog will try anything, for you to say this is the reaction you will DEFINITELY get is a load of BS the only reason they can't run is because you have them stuck on a lead inflicting pain.
You are telling me there is no chance of the dog percieving the pain as the tug on the lead causing it and it will not end up with a fear of leads Dogs do not think like humans in all aspects they can't rationalise things.
Again WTH, getting an electric shock is rewarding, you have got to be kidding
Again I say BS, two of the dogs I have either had or fostered have been nervous dogs, fearful of humans, one aggressive the other just ran, AT NO TIME would I have inflicted and e-collar on them, that does not instil confidence in them it would have cemented the belief that pain was a part of their world and would have broken one and the other would have remained aggressive. I proudly say the aggressive one is no longer aggressive and the fearful one has brilliant recall and I have shown her that people will not cause her pain and when she comes she could not be happier than having a pat and told she is a good girl.

If dogs are nervously fearful pain will send the much quicker into the flight or fight response, it would have required me to contain them to train them into the e-collar pain to come to me, as i said before, conditioning them to believe pain is a part of their life. THAT IS NOT TRAINING THAT IS BREAKING A DOG and that can lead to learnt helplessness
FOOD AND TOY REWARDS ARE NOT NICER again WTH
how does food or toy rewards recreate this "discomfort" you say e-collars cause (I say pain) You never speak of using any other method and have seen you advise people on here with recall problems to use e-collars, it seems to be your answer to everything.

Yup, and I am done, they say you shouldn't fight with idiots as they may confuse to who is the idiot and who isn't, even though in this case it seems quite clear who is
It worries me that someone took his advice from his post and used one (albeit a probable troll ).
Adam really should run for Prime Minister, he so wonderfully responds without actually answering the questions asked, and rabbits on further with his e-collar dribble, trying to justify his use of it
In this thread AP has actually gone even further into his method of training, giving us so more insight into his bizarre thoughts on training dogs, showing how little he actually does know of dogs and their behaviours

I see no point in trying to explain dogs to someone who has suggested on another forum that a stressed out new rescue dog that is having to be kept outside (in Australia), should wear an anti bark collar!

I hate shock collars anyway but the arguement that only 'experienced' trainers should be allowed to use then falls down bigtime as soon as anyone reads Adams posts.

rune

Clowns are very Scary. As Adam has proved.

Yes it is . When all is said and done the e collar trainers won't change their point of view or agree with the majority here who abhor the use of e collars. Why would they, they are making money out of persuading people there is a quick and easy fix to every canine behavioural problem instead of using time and patience to deal with them or finding alternative ways to cope. Trainers who push the use of these devices clearly have no empathy with dogs or they would't be using the collars in the first place when there are other methods of training available.

All the time the devices are being discussed they are being publicised and you know what they say, no publicity is bad publicity. No doubt there are also owners looking for a quick fix, people who have no understating of dogs, purchased the wrong breed for their lifestyle or haven't put in the time and effort required to train their dogs correctly in the first place. Some may even read dog sites looking for information, just what the e collar trainers are are counting on.

Unfortunately each time these devices are mentioned the majority of people here who are against them feel they have to enter discussion rather than letting their use go unchallenged but I feel little is ever achieved (except for people like Adam who apparently stated his intention on a site in the USA to join lots of forums to publicise e collars ) these discussions always end in stalemate.

*some off topic posts have been deleted*

Toy and treat training is an effective method of learning but will cause some stress (mental discomfort).

Why, because the dog is motivated to get the toy or treat and wanting the toy/treat but not getting it while being lured/shaped or simply experiencing the delay between command and reward will be frustrating and stressful.

No matter how quick your training reactions are or how skilfully you setup the dog there will still be times when the dog isn't rewarded. Even the period between one trial and the next will be dead time in terms of reward to the dog and thus stressful.

With an e collar anytime your not stimming your rewarding the dog! So in a training session of 3 or 4 reps the dog might experience 3 or 4 secs of stim but several minutes of reward. In a food reward situation the dog will experience the opposite.

If you watch this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKee0rTjZ2U Jacca is experiencing total reward from the stim (not even wearing it) but has to wait for the toy until the behaviour is over. A dog that is experienced can cope with this but in the early stages will find it slighly stressful/frustrating, unlike e collar.

The frustration of toy/treat training (used on its own. its mitigated by the addition of e collar) can have a fair degree of fallout. Many dogs will checkout of the training and perform self rewarding behaviours. Others will try and speed up the reward by throwing behaviours at the trainer, this may look cute but is an indecation of the stress the dog is experiencing as the more behaviours it throws the more stressed it is. Certainly this would be frowned upon in circus animals, why not dogs?
Other dogs may learn to perform unwnated behaviours to re engage the trainer in a behaviour the dog can do easily and reward.
Often the fall out is less obviouse, the dog becomes less self assured and increases the amount of general appeasment behaviours it performs to obtain feedback from the owners. Some dogs will increase behaviours such as counter surfing in an attempt to achieve the food reward feedback that the owner has made ''special'' during the training session.
Others may try more extreme behaviours in experiments to see what is rewardable, this may include aggression or sterotypic behaviours.

Adam

are you serious... or is this just another post trying to justify why e-collars should be used.

Yes regardless of how it makes nice it makes you feel, it will cause some stress for the dog.

Adam