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Gnasher
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01-10-2010, 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by mishflynn View Post
Maybe shes just a needy clingy character, we all know people like that & in general they dont have many friends
Bless you Mish
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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01-10-2010, 06:19 PM
Originally Posted by rune View Post
I think you are right sometimes---but a dog that wees submissively is generally accepted to be a submissive dog---would you agree with that?

That doesn't generally happen unless the dog is submissive in the majority of situations with other dogs and/or humans. Dogs that greet their humans with a grin are saying what?

If you do agree then there has to be the opposite as well. So there are dogs that are dominant in all situations.

To say that they are not dominant because they don't want something enough doesn't mean that they couldn't have that something if they did want it.

rune
Mia submissivly wees to some humans and a couple of dogs - one I can think of Buster
Buster is submissive to Jock
Jock is submissive to mia
Mia is no way scared of buster, she loves him, after an ovely submissive greeting she plays great with him, and tells him off if he gets too rough

Mia cocks her leg to scent mark
If challanged she dosent submit, she fights - unless with a dog she really trusts then she will just bark yelp at them
She greets many new dogs tail and head up, he head is always higher than theirs and she sniff them before she lets them sniff her
So sorry - 1st hand I would say submissive peeing does not a submissive dog make
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rune
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01-10-2010, 06:20 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
Or if its scared.
Yep---but even frightened it tends to be the more submissive dogs that do it IME. The others will try and bite.

The weeing seems to be an involuntry reaction and an attempt to appease. The biting dog is not attempting to appease.

It doesn't matter if the reaction is inate or learnt.

Pippin has learnt to tone down his body language which was very OTT in the beginning---as are wolves that i have seen. Now it is more muted. His play bows are not so low and his posturing is less tip toed. I assume he has learnt from the others. He never weed in fright but he did poo---so does Zeff.

rune
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Gnasher
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01-10-2010, 06:20 PM
Originally Posted by Lotsadogs View Post
In my view, to study any group of dogs or wolves, or any other canids or indeed species and draw a conclusion that all groups, within the same species, behave the same, is a a very limiting view indeed. One which may often negate the "need" for further learning. Which is not a good approach for general understanding.

it would be like studying a homeless family in Birminham, the royal family, or a small tribe in the outbacks of Africa and trying to apply their structure and behaviour to all humans - it just wouldn't make any sense!!!!

My family is not even the same as my neighbours and neither is yours.

I believe that as in humans, in canids, there are assertive ones and less assertive ones, natural communicators, mother types, hunter types, aloof ones, timid, bold or gregarious ones, teachers, leaders and followers.

I also believe that there are some general "types" of behaviors that are adopted or instinctual in some individuals , whether they are live in groups or not. There are in my experience, policing dogs, nanny dogs, and aggressor dogs, protector dogs, watchdogs etc. Some of these behaviourss are instinctual to some degree, I believe all of these behaviours are usually heightened with learning, experince and age.

Dogs which live in true groups, adopt them more readily, without the interference of humans. Dogs who socialise most often, become more powerfull in whatever role they have adopted and can with experience, or out of group "necessity" . adopt or other required roles.

I think everyone's experience is valid, every point of view worth hearing, but I think that given that we really cant even fully understand the way that humans interact, (and we are human and can talk and write down our thoughts and emotions), then it is highly unlikely that we will ever fully understand the way that dog groups work.

The day we do, is the day that I will stop asking WHY??? and will therefore probably just keel over and die. My life having become rather meaningless!
Absolutely, very well said!
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rune
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01-10-2010, 06:29 PM
[QUOTE=Ben Mcfuzzylugs;2057807]Mia submissivly wees to some humans and a couple of dogs - one I can think of Buster
Buster is submissive to Jock
Jock is submissive to mia
Mia is no way scared of buster, she loves him, after an ovely submissive greeting she plays great with him, and tells him off if he gets too rough

Mia cocks her leg to scent mark
If challanged she dosent submit, she fights - unless with a dog she really trusts then she will just bark yelp at them
She greets many new dogs tail and head up, he head is always higher than theirs and she sniff them before she lets them sniff her
So sorry - 1st hand I would say submissive peeing does not a submissive dog make[/QUOT

I would read it differently, I'd say she accepted Buster as above her and needs to make sure he understands that she is happy in that position whenever they meet. With other dogs I would imagine she isn't as sure of herself or as confident with the other dogs, probably because Buster is confident in his own skin and that gives her security.

I have known lots of overtly submissive dogs who scent mark high, and several very confident ones who don't.

How are you catagorising the otherts---what makes Buster submissive to Jock and Jock submissive to Mia---how do they show it.

If you can accept submissiveness why have you got a problem with dominance?

rune
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Gnasher
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01-10-2010, 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by wolfdogowner View Post
You got me confused there. If Mech is observing wild wolves and they are in the wild then how can the environment be artificial?

If Shaun Ellis lived with wild wolves then how can having a human as a pack member make a pack natural?
Mech was observing wolves living on a relatively small island - Ellesmere Island. This is unscientific and unnatural - due to the possibility of inbreeding, lack of food resources and other issues. I believe there were several packs involved, not just one pack, but either way, not scientific at all. Differing packs of wolves do not live close to each other, and they have to have sufficient land to be able to move on when they need to. This would not be possible on a small island, and would thus create an artificial environment.

Shaun Ellis lived with a pack of wild wolves, and seeing as THEY accepted him as a pack member, not the other way round, I cannot see a problem with listening to what he learned. He has nothing to gain either way - whether he says he believes in wolf rank, or whether he believes in David Mech's theories, he still makes a living out of his wolves at Combe Martin. David Mech gets to sell a shedload of books, magazines, lectures, etc. etc. all over again but doing a complete volte face. Call me cynical, but I smells a rat!
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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01-10-2010, 06:42 PM
lol, I am just using the terms people on here use
But I say a dog can choose to display submissive gestures towards another dog
one dog does not dominate the other, one chooses to submit
I dont believe that makes them a submissive dog - just that they have submited

Mia towards buster is v low on the ground and wiggly, sometimes peeing, she will sometimes roll on her bakc. Then she bounces on him from underneath licking his muzzle, then spinning round smacking her bum then her nose in his face - then they zoom of and have great fun playing

Buster creeps up to Jock, head on the floor tip of tail wagging, some face licking

Jock, pretty similar greeting Mia
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Gnasher
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01-10-2010, 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
I WAS interested, thats why I asked.
Fair enough, I apologise then for my cynicism ... and rudeness
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wolfdogowner
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01-10-2010, 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Mech was observing wolves living on a relatively small island - Ellesmere Island. This is unscientific and unnatural - due to the possibility of inbreeding, lack of food resources and other issues. I believe there were several packs involved, not just one pack, but either way, not scientific at all. Differing packs of wolves do not live close to each other, and they have to have sufficient land to be able to move on when they need to. This would not be possible on a small island, and would thus create an artificial environment.

Shaun Ellis lived with a pack of wild wolves, and seeing as THEY accepted him as a pack member, not the other way round, I cannot see a problem with listening to what he learned. He has nothing to gain either way - whether he says he believes in wolf rank, or whether he believes in David Mech's theories, he still makes a living out of his wolves at Combe Martin. David Mech gets to sell a shedload of books, magazines, lectures, etc. etc. all over again but doing a complete volte face. Call me cynical, but I smells a rat!
Can't agree with your premise. Mech chose Ellesmere specifically because it had suffered little human influence and would therefore represent wolves in a more natural state than those he had studied in the 'States which are under resource pressures largely created by man. All this would be fine if Mech was the only one who ever studied wolves but other well respected and established researchers have also contributed to the knowledge of wolves and their behaviour. If you read Theberge, for example, you will find that he has an inspired understanding of wolf family behaviour that is not mired in rigid models of alpha behaviour. Of course he only devoted a life time to studying wildlife.

Not sure what making a living of the back of wolves has to do with anything at all? At least we have proof Mech was actually there!
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rune
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01-10-2010, 07:17 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
lol, I am just using the terms people on here use
But I say a dog can choose to display submissive gestures towards another dog
one dog does not dominate the other, one chooses to submit
I dont believe that makes them a submissive dog - just that they have submited

Mia towards buster is v low on the ground and wiggly, sometimes peeing, she will sometimes roll on her bakc. Then she bounces on him from underneath licking his muzzle, then spinning round smacking her bum then her nose in his face - then they zoom of and have great fun playing

Buster creeps up to Jock, head on the floor tip of tail wagging, some face licking

Jock, pretty similar greeting Mia


I'd want to see them in a confined space together for an amount of time----by which I mean in a house and garden with walks before I decided what was happening.

Jock has probably decided discretion is the better part of valour LOL.

rune
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