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View Poll Results: Is CM improving as a TV trainer & offering more apt advice
Yes 45 52.33%
No 41 47.67%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll - please see pinned thread in this section for details.



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Gnasher
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04-06-2009, 12:22 PM
Originally Posted by CheekyChihuahua View Post
Awwww, bless that fearless descendent of a wolf

Seriously, what a brave little girl. I think most of mine would have run for cover. Although to protect one of my kids, maybe not. Hopefully, I'll never see a rattlesnake that could put them to the test Do get snakes in the forest close to our house but the dogs don't seem to notice them (I do though - I have a BIG fear of snakes )
Another reason to stay in the UK - not so many nasties
Both dogs and humans frequently have a huuge fear of snakes, I personally love 'em, but I think the trouble with a dog like Daddy, a pit bull, he would wade in and bite first, and ask questions later, which would inevitably have resulted in his death at some stage or other. CM needed to teach him to be afraid of the snake to such an extent that he would give them a wide berth in future.

The e collar worked - which in my opinion just goes to show how very painful and scarey they must be to a dog! I personally believe that in this case the end justified the means, but I have to say there are very few occasions I can think of where such a thing should be used. But as controversial as doubtless this is, I think with a dog like Daddy CM was entirely justified.
topbarks
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04-06-2009, 12:29 PM
Originally Posted by Tassle View Post
My biggest problem with this...If you use (for wahtever reason) you endorse it as a viable method to train a dog.

People need to be made aware of better/safer methods not continue with methods that are harmful.




And here in lies the problem....what he obviously sees as 'acceptable' or 'suitable' methods for those dogs other people see as an excessive use of force and physical domination.

Some people do not have a problem with dogs been treated like that....others do.

It does not matter that he will not use these methods on all the dogs he sees....he uses them on a few...which in many peoples minds is a few to many with the other methods we are aware of in these more enlightened days.
Do you not find you have to pick up the pieces when it all goes horribly wrong Hannah?
A little knowledge can be very dangerous IMO.
Messages on the show flash up saying " do not use this technique at home" but Do people take notice of it? Not in my experience.
Just because it is shown on the TV by a so called expert does not make intimidating dogs into a state of learned helplessness any more acceptable to me.
Tassle
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04-06-2009, 12:34 PM
Originally Posted by topbarks View Post
Do you not find you have to pick up the pieces when it all goes horribly wrong Hannah?
A little knowledge can be very dangerous IMO.
Messages on the show flash up saying " do not use this technique at home" but Do people take notice of it? Not in my experience.
Just because it is shown on the TV by a so called expert does not make intimidating dogs into a state of learned helplessness any more acceptable to me.
Sadly yes - I have had to pick up the peices several times.
Often people have been on forums or spoken to friends who have watched or tried these methods without help and so feel that they can as well....
Borderdawn
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04-06-2009, 01:22 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Just googled "rattlesnake attacks on dogs in USA" and got this up:

* * * * (name deleted deliberately) has called in Hollywood's DOG WHISPERER to train her pets to avoid rattlesnakes on the family's Malibu, California ranch.
The actress was devastated when her beloved pooch Rocco died after a rattlesnake attack and she now feels compelled to make sure her other dogs stay away from danger.
She says, "I'm willing to do what's necessary to make sure I don't have this same event happen again."
Pinkett Smith called in reality TV star Cesar Millan, who filmed his bid to train the dogs for his Dog Whisperer show.
Millan used real rattlesnakes to teach the dogs to be aware of their sound and danger.
During the shooting of the show, he told Pinkett Smith that more than 150,000 dogs and cats are left dead or seriously injured after venomous snake attacks every year.

-------------------------------------------------

I personally think this is pretty serious, don't you?
My point to you Nikki, is WHY did CM use his elderly Pit Bull? he was terrified and rightly so and used just to make a point, why didnt he "train" her dogs, the very ones he was supposed to be helping?
Jackie
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04-06-2009, 01:40 PM
Originally Posted by Shona View Post
Im not sure that I really do, the reason being, Im naturaly calm, I work with horses/cows/bulls/rams/ all sorts every other day, being calm round animals is something I think I was born with,

Its also what makes me good at my job, lets face it I wouldnt be of much use when a battle starts in a nightclub, if I freak out lol

but as said again, the whole calm thing is not CM's nor these training methods have been around far longer than CM has had his tv programe running.

That's the trouble , some see the calm / assertive way of training is ALL CM , and no one else has thought of it.

But as with many GOOD trainers their calming energy will continue on through all the training methods both for the human and the dog.

Where in CM wil preach till the cows come home, that calm .assertive energy..is all it takes, them he blots his copy book by resorting to violence , i.e stringing/pinning/

Remeber most trainers will train the human to train the dog, a good trainer will educate the human in the way to deal with any given problem.

Now take CM... he rehabilitates a aggressive dog, by flooding it... either by use of pinning. stringing, or his illusion collar...

He fixes the dog , then hands it back to the owner, who has seem how he does it... can you imagine the carnage when said owners try this at home.... after all Cesar did it.

Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
There was no life or death situation with Daddy, he used him as an example, there was no need at all whatsoever for the dog to be subjected to that collar as he was never going to come in contact witrh Snakes.
The reason he did it was because , it was good TV, he subjected his dog to the e.collar for no other reason than to make the programme..

Now correct me if I am wrong Daddy and all his other dogs live in a compound in LA...do you get Rattle snakes in inner cities

What chance in a million , will his dogs have of coming into contact with killer snakes.

Now why not use the dog of the client to teach it to stay away from snakes... after all they where the ones living in the great outdoors
Gnasher
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04-06-2009, 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
My point to you Nikki, is WHY did CM use his elderly Pit Bull? he was terrified and rightly so and used just to make a point, why didnt he "train" her dogs, the very ones he was supposed to be helping?

Because this "elderly pitbull" is very fit and healthy, and showing far too much interest in lethal snakes ! As we now know, Daddy et al are taken out into S California where snakes are prevalent and therefore the likelihood of death was extremely high.
mishflynn
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04-06-2009, 05:21 PM
Ive said it before & i will Say it again, the more out of his depth CM gets , the more & more he spouts the "calm energy" yet he CANT do it, hes not calm, it almost like hes trying to convince the owners & himself. His body language is so tense & "tight", its quite funny really. So a case ofthe "emporers new clothes" , say it enough & people will buy it!!!!

Lately ive noticed that if he cant sort the dogs off at home he carts them off to his concrete yard!!!!! God it must be hot on that concrete & they all need a good brush
Gnasher
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04-06-2009, 08:02 PM
Promethean : we need your American input on the subject of the dangers of death or serious injury by venomous snake in the States.

You may have seen or heard of the episode of the Dog Whisperer where Cesar needs to stop Daddy attacking rattlesnakes in Southern California. He uses an e-collar. If the dangers of death or serious injury by snake is as serious as it would appear from the little bit of research that I have done, then my stance is that as much as I hate e-collars, the use of one on poor old Daddy may have been justified.

What is your opinion of this, and are venomous snakes a problem for dogs in the States?
Promethean
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04-06-2009, 08:04 PM
Originally Posted by Shona View Post
thanks for that CC, I guess the next question has to be, if the jab didnt work, would you move on to more harsh methods, such as stringing up?

I also have a multi dog household, I have had 7 rotties living here in the past, with three stud dogs, never had a problem, without useing CM's methods, so I guess many methods work, if you see what im getting at,

I guess I just want to know how you feel about stringing up, and if you would consider doing it to one of yours?

sorry to put you on the spot.
Like you I currently have 4 dogs who could very well decide to kill me and have a really good chance at doing so. These 3 intact males are not cream puffs and by Cesar's metric they do everything "dominant" dogs do and he would likely say that they are trying or have "taken over" As I've stated previously the are trained in protection sports with one of them doing real civil defense. Despite all of this, I've never employed any of Millan's punitive methods to train them, nor do I or my neighbours, other dogs experience any problems with them.

In Bark Magazine Dr. Nicholas Dodman tells this story about a research carried out by a grad student at tufts. Two groups of puppies one group was told:

"Have a nice day," and the other group was told, "Number one, make your puppy sit in order to get fed; number two, make your little puppy sit to get food treats; and, number three, provide the puppy with a crate. (You don’t have to put the dog in there twenty-three hours a day, you can even leave the door open. Make it a safe place for the dog to go to.)"
Big surprise, the first group ended up with aggressive, possessive problem dogs. The second group taught the dog to sit for stuff had no problems. It's like Jean McConnell likes to say, bad behavior is the product of owners rewarding bad behavior.
Gnasher
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04-06-2009, 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by mishflynn View Post
Ive said it before & i will Say it again, the more out of his depth CM gets , the more & more he spouts the "calm energy" yet he CANT do it, hes not calm, it almost like hes trying to convince the owners & himself. His body language is so tense & "tight", its quite funny really. So a case ofthe "emporers new clothes" , say it enough & people will buy it!!!!

Lately ive noticed that if he cant sort the dogs off at home he carts them off to his concrete yard!!!!! God it must be hot on that concrete & they all need a good brush
That's why there are paddling pools everywhere for the dogs to cool off in Mish

I so disagree about CM's body language

You would have expected nothing less, would you, from me !!
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