Quite, of course round livestock, dangerous roads, clifftops etc. etc. I would put ANY dog on a lead, however brilliantly obedient. But I am not talking about those situations, i am talking about a life on a lead. That, to my mind, is cruel.

LS : sorry darling, I forgot about Loki's proclivities! Of course you are quite right in these circs. Sorry I should have added that to the list of dangers. I wouldn't use an e-collar on him either to try to stop him fighting.

Are you a Cesar Millan fan dare I ask?

Of course - you have a right to voice any opinion that you have.

However, I do think that using a lead, rather than an e-collar, involves minimal intervention in order to keep a dog under control and if you (one) can't guarantee that the dog won't bother people/dogs/sheep/traffic, it's the responsible thing to do.

Unless I could be 100% that Loki wouldn't run off and fight other dogs, there's no way I would ever risk letting him off around them. So, much to my Dad's concern, I hike off over the fields where there is nobody - or at least not many.

Good point. But I have trained Tai to come away on command. I cannot trust him around sheep, but ground nesters and flapping fledgings provided I am alert, I can call him off before he has pounced.

But he is not perfect, and I will be the first to admit that although it hasn't happened so far, he will undoubtedly one day get a partridge - God forbid. Or some other ground nesting bird like a pheasant or sky lark. He does make the most awful racket though, he sounds like a galloping horse coming so hopefully they will remain safe if they are in the long grass through which he doesn't go.

It is after all part of nature that these species are near the bottom of the food chain. I won't keep my dog permanently on the lead during the nesting season just in case he may catch a bird before I can call him off.

In case you missed it Gnasher, Claire answered No to the original question so she was not off topic . Neither did Claire go off topic and ramble on about herself or wolves/going to the pub etc ad nauseam is every thread in which she posts.

In answer to your original question ''can there ever be any justification to e collars '' or should I say can there be any justification for torturing dogs with an electric shock my answer is a firm no, there can't even in the context of teaching so called 'snake aversion'.
I have read the sites which advocate teaching snake aversion with e collars and it looks like an easy money making scheme to me.

Teaching snake aversion is no guarentee of a dog's safety, an inquisitive dog will still search undergrowth and if the snake spots it first it will still be bitten !

..has anyone condemned a dog to a life on a lead, are you actually saying there is nowhere in the whole of the USA that is free of rattle snakes and safe to let a dog off a lead !
If I lived in the USA I think I would have enough gumption to find a place that was safe to let my dog off the lead, I would also teach it the 'leave ' command and to come to me when called and I could do this without the use of an e collar!

One thing you missed in your internet search..

Yes absolutely, I would never use an e-collar in such circs. A lead every time !

There's the epilepsy too, so I would be very wary of zapping any dog with a medical condition.

I was open minded about him, having watched only a few episodes, courtesy of Virgin Media, who will persist in giving tv shows then removing them unless you subscribe. (Which I won't, no matter how much they try to tempt me!)

I was very unhappy with the episode that was highlighted on here, the one where he back-kicked the wolfy-type dog and there have been a few things I've seen highlighted that I don't like, for instance Dawn highlighted the use of the elderly Daddy to demonstrate an e-collar and a snake. Must admit, I've gone off him somewhat.

I do like methods such as those of Ian Dunbar - I used to love watching him on tv.

Shame you never took the time to see why Millie spends most of her life on the lead, before you blaseted me in the PM you sent... for being a cruel owner, to my Boxers

Mini, with the greatest respect you took considerable pains to consistently delete posts made by myself and others that were in your opinion off thread. And yet here you are doing exactly the same thing! Going off thread. Tut tut!! O well, I guess when you are a moderator it is one rule for you, one for everyone else fair enough.

I have consistently been attacked by Claire just because I use methods of training which in her opinion are cruel. She is quite entitled to her opinions of course, but she is not entitled to accuse me of being cruel and abusive, which she has done over the last few days/weeks. If you can't take it, she shouldn't dish it out.

I shall ignore your nasty remarks about me in your posting Minihaha and just put them down to jealousy.

Right, let's get back on track. You say if you lived in the States you would have the gumption to find a snake-free place. Where? How? America is a huge place. We have learned that the snake training with Daddy took place in Southern California, which if my geography serves me correctly is nigh on a desert scrub area, hundreds and hundreds of miles. How far do you consider it would be to travel for a walk every day just to avoid snakes, assuming you had the time and the money to be able to do such a thing? How do you know where the venomous snakes are?

My dog is very good at "leave", but I haven't got eyes in the back of my head, and I cannot be guaranteed to watch him so intently during the whole of a walk that I am ready to shout "leave" ! the minute I see a snake ! Doubtless he would see or hear it long before me ... one bitten dog.

Sorry, I had to go and walk my dog ... off lead, no snakes, no e-collars !! I will resume the search later, but from the short time I was googling I did not come up against any "anti" snake training sites. I found one that was in favour of e-collars for this type of training.

I think the best thing is if we wait until Promethean is on line so we can ask him about the whole snake issue in the States. Is it hyped up, or is it a serious problem, especially in snakey areas, whatever and wherever they might be.

Jackbox : I took great pains to explain that there may be a medical reason why you kept your boxer on a lead. I am sorry, I had overlooked the fact at the time when I sent you that message that there may be an issue here similar to that of Loki's. I apologise for that, it was an oversight, as will be clear if you look at the timings of the postings to LS and the PM.

Sorry, truly.