Funny enough it was a police instructor of 25 years experience that mentioned about correct usage being ok in certain cases; just shows that not everyone agrees.

Personally I would never use them. The risk of misuse is too great and therefore don't think they should be legal.

With working dogs there is always lots of talk about 'high drive' dogs and how they are different from pet dogs. I have lived with a few high drive dogs. They're still dogs.

Exactly. Dogs are dogs. Pet dogs can also have high drives.
There is no mystery about working dogs and in the main no massive differences. You need to be aware that some BCs may be more ehrdy than others...that some GSDs may also be more herdy than others..but they are, at the end of the day, dogs. Once you find what floats their boat they can all be trained with rewards.

As I have said, I agree that it is preferable to take the dog to a behaviourist like the one you suggested (provided the methods are kind and effective), or use a long line as a training aid. With the proviso that the long line does not work on all dogs as some soon realise there is no control once the line is off. Mind you a dog hitting a long line at full speed could inflict on it very painful injury (either to the neck, or to its legs tangled in the long line), never mind the injury a handler might sustain being flung to the ground by a strong dog, or an innocent by-stander or dog being caught up in the line).

I don't think keeping the dog on a long line forever is preferable.

I also don't think rehoming the dog is preferable either. Unless the owner knows the prospective new family well there is no guarantee the dog will be in an equally loving home or not be passed on.

If the ecollar is used correctly it is very unlikely that other problems will occur as a direct result - the other problems usually occur as a result of the training not being well thought out, and the shocks being mistimed. That having been said, there will be dogs which are sensitive souls and would fall to pieces if the ecollar is used on them, and obviously that is not an option for them.

I think we have both summed up what we think quite well, and so perhaps our discussion has run its course? I don't think we will persuade each other of our views.

Whoops double post!

TOTALLY agree with you there My first own dog, as oposed to the family dogs, was a high drive dog with US lines. There's a lot of rubbish talked about high drive dogs IME and O. And it's often used to impress the gulllible. Of course they do need dedication and commitment to training etc.

Wys
x

That is very true - often the fact or claim that the dog is high drive is used as an excuse to use harsh training methods and extreme corrections to compensate for the handlers lack of knowledge of how such a dog can be motivated to comply without the use of force.

That said, I do think that a lot of high drive dogs need more knowledge to handle and train properly (and kindly) than lower drive dogs - which is why of course first time dog owners are often advised not to start off with a higher drive breed of dog.

I personally would not like to keep my dog on a lead or long-line for the rest of its life, if a couple of exercises with an ecollar would put the dog off sheep for life. That is JMO.

I agree that going to see someone experienced in this kind of problem, such as Angela Stockdale, would be another method tried prior to using an ecollar. I did in fact contact her about my sheep-chasing dog and she emailed me a lengthy and comprehensive reply. I wish I had had the time and money to go to one of her courses back when I had this dog.

The point of training with an ecollar though is that the dog only need have to wear it once or twice and it will never chase sheep again. It is not (usually) a case of having to wear the ecollar for life. I have seen it work for two dogs after just one use and the dogs never chased, or even looked at, livestock again.

I agree. A true high drive dog is a different prospect to a lively pet dog though, and does generally need a more experienced and knowledgeable handler.

What has surprised me is that you see many dogs in Schutzhund training with pinch collars on, and most of the police dogs in the US seem to have either pinch or ecollars on, yet the UK police have no problems training their high drive working dogs without the use of such training aids? Does anyone know why this is?

Ecollars can be hired for a fraction of what you pay to buy them. I am also not sure how much AS charges for her sheep courses, but I am fairly confident they will be into the £100s and then you have the expense of travelling down there (if you happen to live up North) as well as taking time off work etc. I agree though that it should definitely be an option to try, if at all practicable, prior to using an ecollar.

I don't agree with your comment that "if people aren't willing to put in the time then they shouldn't have the dog" in a case of a sheep-chaser. There are many dogs who, having experienced the thrill of the chase, may be impossible to retrain to ignore livestock. As I have said, I would not like to condemn any of my dogs to a life on a lead.