Could you define your terms please?
Exercise - to what end?
Boundaries - Whose boundaries, how are they set and why?
Affection - why? How is this demonstrated and what does the dog get out of it?
Instead of pat phrases I`d be interested in knowing -
How does he say a dog learns ?
How do they communicate?
How does he reconcile the different expectations of animal and human?
All I`ve heard so far is that the method works through compulsion and negative re-inforcement. I`ve heard nothing about using the dog`s natural drives, about shaping or rewards.
How, for example could you teach distance control using this method?

Yes, I agree there. Unless people are 100% confident in their ability to re-train or correct a dog for unwanted behavioural traits then they certainly shouldn't attempt to tackle it. Especially in cases where a dog is showing dog-dog agression or indeed aggression towards humans. Any such cases, should, in my opinion, be passed onto a behaviourist immediately as it simply isn't worth the risk.

Mind you, at least at the beginning of each show of "The Dog Whisperer", at least the warning of "do not attempt these techniques...etc" is shown, so, to give it its dues in that respect, it covers itself.

I'll get back to you this evening regarding your questions ClaireandDaisy. Little one has just woken up from her afternoon nap so won't get chance to answer them with any justice until she's in bed tonight. Promise to get back to you with some answers later though.

You should check back through some threads!!!

Rob Alleyne gets some stick on a few threads on here!
They also use a lot of positive which is why they don't get quite a s much stick I think...

I'll let Ace answer the rest, I'm off shopping now for dog stuff.

Tata and HTH x

Hi Sarah welcome to Dogsey.
Are the RSPCA aware that you advocate the use of Ecollars . I thought the RSPCA was against there use . The report the RSPCA commissioned from Emily Blackwell and Rachel Casey of the Department of Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol certainly doesn't speak well of them does it.
I am a bit shocked to hear a behaviourist advocate using the methods of CM and ecollars. I am sure a behaviourist belonging to a recognised body like the APBC would not recommend either.

Well I've dipped into the past threads and read the one on Dog Borstal in 2006.
It seems to me two years ago forum members were more open to aversive training methods and reward based training has gained a lot of ground since then. I'm still not completely convinced that all dogs can be trained using positive methods only.

To be totally honest (and I'm not meaning to be rude at all - that's not the way I work) this thread is going round in circles. I don't really think any of us are going to budge on what we think of CM, are we? I certainly am not. His methods I have used have worked for my dogs and, for that reason, I have to say that I feel his methods work

If anyone thinks that my dogs are frightened little introverts because I use the "bite" method that CM advocates - please think again My dogs are confident and sometimes they are naughty and do stuff they shouldn't. They can also be as good as gold. To me, that makes them normal dogs. I don't want a little soldier that jumps when I click my fingers but neither do I want an unruly mutt that everyone avoids

I think it was Minihaha (correct me if I'm wrong) who said something about any Bitch that corrects its pup too much shouldn't be bred....... (talking about the hand "bite" method).

Well, I have a litter at the moment. My bitch has rarely corrected her pups, only when they go towards her food bowl which she knows they must not have yet. So, in that matter, you are totally correct. However, who said that the followers of CM use the "bite" method all the time????? I will only do it if one of mine, say, goes to jump up to somebody's plate. I will firstly say "no", then "no" a bit louder and if the verbal commands don't work, then a swift hand bite (not in any way hard or intended to cause pain) whilst making a shhhhhhhhhh noise and they will immediately walk away. Not with their tail between their legs, cowering with fear but more of a "oh, well, I tried" look on their face but realise they are not to do whatever it was. I can't remember when I used this method in the last few weeks and I have 8 Chis and the majority are under two years old, so not over-use of the method by anyone's standards, I would have said.

Anyway, like I said, I will not change my mind on CM. Not because I am pig-headed but because I know his methods work for me and mine. Whether they work for everyone else, I do not know but, if they don't, it's up to the Owner to find another suitable method to train their dogs

CM is definitely the trainer for me

As for that Mic Martin (Dog Borstal) he refused to even try to train a Chihuahua once on the programme, so to me, he is a fool. How can you judge a dog before you've even spent an amount of time getting to know it

We have the worst dog "social" problems ever now, exactly the same as children problems, ASBO's raping, muggings, burglaries even murders commited by children, why? Cos you are not allowed to disipline them thats why, its the same for dogs! Dog should be treated like dogs and not reasoned with like a human being, it doesnt often work. Many dogs do not require any type of training or correction, just like kids, but some do and IMO CM does a grand job.

I tend to find people that have dogs with no issues are the ones who critisize the most, those with aggressive dogs or dogs with obsessive issues that CM has helped would never agree with you and neither do I.

Mini.
Re that PB, would you of been happy to let that dog near your dog in the manner it was behaving? Ill tell you now she didnt want to play! Manic excitement is very dangerous, I have boarded many PB's and that type of behaviour is not pleasant and is not easily curbed. I have NEVER seen CM kick a dog, the push in the side DOES work in breaking a dogs fixation, and to save any more hysterics or risk escalating an already dangerous situation, its a reasonable move IMO.

Flooding.
I wasnt familiar with that term, but it can work for many dogs. We have dogs that board with us that display incredibly unreasonable behaviour such as "cant walk on the floor" One dog we regularly board would not at all whatsoever walk on the tiled floor in the morning. If you put a lead on her she would scream and fight, no way would she walk, no amount of temptation, kindness or anything else would make her move. Now, second time to come out in the kennels, NO PROBLEM, walk out by herself and back again, no encouragement and no lead or anything, why? Our dogs are fed after the second exercise period! she knew she would get food after going out that time and there was nothing in it for her the first time, a biscuit or splitting her food didnt work. One time she threw a wobbly coming out I just waited (instead of picking her up!) she threw herself round, screamed, protested etc.. and I waited untill she stopped. She looked at me and just trotted off up the corridor at my side wagging at all as she alway did the second time. NEVER does it now, doesnt stop, doesnt fight, doesnt require a lead at any time, why? I believe its because she learned that fighting and screaming gained her nothing. This is what CM does and I agree with it. Its interesting that the dogs owners had similar problems with her at home, namely wouldnt go out if it was raining but would wee and mess in the house instead, I believe they bought CM's book (first one) and not on my recommendation by the way, and the isssues they had at home no longer exist. His methods suit many dogs.

I think people who have well behaved and well balanced dogs can see bad in CM more easily than those that have benefitted from his techniques, or those who have dogs with the potential to get out of hand and require constant watching and training.

Yup, exactly. My thoughts echo precisely those of Borderdawn and CheekyChihuahua. (Equally, I agree that no breed, no matter how big or small should be instantly dismissed by anyone, let alone a trainer)

My little one is still up so I'll pop back on once she's tucked up in bed to answer the questions you posed earlier ClaireandDaisy. Haven't forgotten, just not had time to reply to a lengthy thread like that yet so will get back regarding the answers in another few hours

And FAO Minihaha - my work as a behaviourist/trainer is on a self employed basis - my own business is something I've been working on for years now - started in Wales before moving up to the North East of England. Have recently gone down the line of expanding the business to take into account things like pet sitting, dog walking and the grooming side of things. I do indeed work for the RSPCA alongside my self employment. You are right, the RSPCA doesn't condone the use of e-collars. But then again, where have I said that I condone the use of e-collars? All I've said is that if one of my own dogs decided to get a "thing" for chasing and nipping at car wheels (as the vehicles were moving) and all methods of getting them to stop were failing then I would give one a try. I'd rather save my dogs life than to watch one of them get flattened by a car. Ultimately I'd always wonder "what if" if anything like that happened. (Hopefully I'll never find any of my dogs in a situation where they get a "thing" for moving tyres anyway! )

Sooo, although I don't go around suggestion e-collars be used by all my clients who get in touch regarding their problematic dogs, equally, if I felt it was the only remaining option, then yes, I'd suggest it.

I've never actually handled an e-collar personally so this goes to show how often I've resorted to it.... i.e. never.

What I will say though is that I would want to try it myself first - around my arm or leg or whatever. If it was absolutely agonising then maybe I'd think again but if reports are to be believed then the "jolt" really isn't that strong. So, as with anything else, assuming they're used correctly (which of course they would be if they were under guidance from a behaviourist/trainer - you'd hope ) then there shouldn't be an issue.

Hi Dawn I am not so sure about that. What I do think though is that as the population has become more affluent with a greater disposable income/ more houses empty all day with 2 people working /many people have taken up dog ownership without realising the commitment needed to achieve a well balanced dog without behavioural problems.


. If you read my previous post you will see I said..

Have you watched the video clip I posted in this thread ? It shows a friendly / exuberant/excitable/untrained PBT which may not have been well socialized with other dogs.

The dog in the clip would benefit from some training and socialization/desensitization to other dogs.

So I would give the dog some basic training to take its attention away from other dogs and on to me and to get it used to being around other dogs, so seeing other dogs becomes no big thing. It would take a lot of time and work of course to achieve this , there are no quick fixes which fit into an half hour TV slot with these kind of training methods.
Then I would introduce it to my dog .