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Shona
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26-04-2008, 12:16 PM
Originally Posted by Barry View Post
aww thats a great vid! vinnie as you say has a lovely elegant 'back up'!!! Tikka heared your voice there and was nearly up on the kitchen table! LOL
ah see I cant be a bad trainer then ,,,,if she had been cowering under the table I would be worried,,,bless her,, hope to see you on monday,,,with the new grow-ded-up-ted tikka lol

just noticed,, I cant get vinnie to walk that straight going forward,,, ,, mabey he just does better backwards lol
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Meg
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26-04-2008, 12:28 PM
Originally Posted by suze View Post
i get what your saying minihaha - BUT dogs are not like newborns,, they are more better compared to toddlers

if a todler was going to put tis finger in the rfire - would go you no,, pull child away - child has ,earnt nothing execpt im going to go back when your not looking,, but if you say no -smack - (not hard obv) on somewhere likenappy - then its shock factor,,, babies hand saved from being burnt


can i ask this question though- - - how many people here were smacked as kids - (just atap i mean) to let them know a certain behaviour was wrong??? and if you were smacked, how many of those people smack their dogs??

just a thought.....



p.s - i was smacked as a child when i was naughty - the fire for example was whatreally happened to me,,,,
Hi suze No I would not smack the toddler or any child for going near the fire, (I assume by toddler you mean a child under the age of 3)
Firstly as an adult in charge of a toddler it is up to me to make sure the fire is covered and the child protected from the fire.

Secondly a toddler is non cognizant (as is a dog) and has no 'awareness of self', therefore it is pretty pointless to try to explain the concept of pain in relation to oneself to a toddler, by smacking it you are punishing it for doing that which it doesn't understand. When the toddler is old enough to understand the concept of pain I will explain the need to keep away from fire. Until such times I will keep it safe.

Smacking children teaches them violence is acceptable behaviour, children learn by example and it is up to adults to lead by example



Now back to the topic of dogs, newborns or toddlers it is all the same the point being when smacking it you are punishing 'a being' for doing something that is either natural behaviour or beyond their comprehension and this to me is unacceptable and cruel.

As for the 'I was smacked as a child and it did me no harm ' well I was smacked too and it certainly did me lots of harm and resulting in my being a very unhappy, bitter and rebellious child. I learned there was a better way than smacking children and didn't pass the concept of using violence to express oneself on to my own children and those I cared for.

Striking an animal is not the same as "beating a number of bell out of him/her. Neither shall it be used when the dog is crying or peeing / pooping on the floor. It is a last resort and should be used when required. Not because we are bad handlers, but keep in mind - exactly half of us are below average handlers. When a situation escalates beyond our ability to handle - it may become necessary. It shall then be done, without anger, swiftly and decisively! Preferably with an object suitable to create hurt, but not damage.
It is not a cop-out or an admittion of defeat, even though those against, love to claim so.

I thought this was obvious!

In my oppinion, most of the "Never never ever lot are way below average handlers. They dont face reality

Nav
For me smacking a dog shows a lack of patience and is the equivelent to admitting one hasn't the ability to train a dog using kinder methods.
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Navigator
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26-04-2008, 02:48 PM
Anne-Marie:

I totally disagree with this part of your statement.

When is it preferable to use an object suitable to create hurt! I would never use an object to strike my dog with and certainly when I am adminstering a scruff my intent is NEVER to hurt him. It is an action that is telling him 'you've overstepped the mark - not acceptable!"
I think dogs are like horses and only capable of one emotion at the time.
If my Gira attacked someone in anger, I doubt if I could call her back with words. I know, thats my failure as a handler, but its still my resposibility to prevent her from hurting someone else. (please disregard the fact that I could easily lift her up and pull her away) I know that as a last resort, I would strike her. With the intent of replacing anger with fear by causing pain.

Nav
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Westie_N
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26-04-2008, 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
Hi suze No I would not smack the toddler or any child for going near the fire, (I assume by toddler you mean a child under the age of 3)
Firstly as an adult in charge of a toddler it is up to me to make sure the fire is covered and the child protected from the fire.

Secondly a toddler is non cognizant (as is a dog) and has no 'awareness of self', therefore it is pretty pointless to try to explain the concept of pain in relation to oneself to a toddler, by smacking it you are punishing it for doing that which it doesn't understand. When the toddler is old enough to understand the concept of pain I will explain the need to keep away from fire. Until such times I will keep it safe.

Smacking children teaches them violence is acceptable behaviour, children learn by example and it is up to adults to lead by example

Now back to the topic of dogs, newborns or toddlers it is all the same the point being when smacking it you are punishing 'a being' for doing something that is either natural behaviour or beyond their comprehension and this to me is unacceptable and cruel.

As for the 'I was smacked as a child and it did me no harm ' well I was smacked too and it certainly did me lots of harm and resulting in my being a very unhappy, bitter and rebellious child. I learned there was a better way than smacking children and didn't pass the concept of using violence to express oneself on to my own children and those I cared for.

For me smacking a dog shows a lack of patience and is the equivelent to admitting one hasn't the ability to train a dog using kinder methods.
Hi Mini,

I agree and fully understand all of the above. Very well explained.

I, too, was smacked as a child and it did me a lot of harm as well and like you, caused me to be unhappy and fearful. There are far better ways of training children and dogs how to behave and the kind, positive methods are by far the best and the happiest way to train, rather than through negative force. Your last statement confirms what I think also.

Thanks for explaining so well.
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Westie_N
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26-04-2008, 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by Shona View Post
people often look at my lot and think I must hammer them into doing what they are told,,,, I think they are often surprised when they get to know the dogs see how easy it is to upset them, I love liberty training, it works so well with rotties,,, {liberty being free of restraint,,in this case,, not free form jail, lol }

here is a bit of vid of kaos and vinnie, I train without a lead 99.9% of the time with my lot, the vid proves how thick vinnie is,, lol, excuse the hair, oh and the fleese,, its dougies,, got caught in a shower when we got to the park,,, big frizzy head,, thank god for ghds,,lol or I would look like that all the time,

just watched it you can tell when olwen my neighbour says things like ooh I caught him doing that,,,,vinnies a special case, lol
the reason he did so much back up,,,is because its what he knows,,,,lol that and a few other bits and bobs,,but not much
http://s133.photobucket.com/albums/q...uremixz223.flv
Shona,

I really loved the video. Your dogs are a credit to you. Well done.
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Shona
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26-04-2008, 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by Westie_N View Post
Shona,

I really loved the video. Your dogs are a credit to you. Well done.
lol who vinnie,,, I really must put some work into that boy, lol
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Westie_N
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26-04-2008, 04:48 PM
Originally Posted by Shona View Post
lol who vinnie,,, I really must put some work into that boy, lol
Even Vinnie, Shona. He just likes to be unique, that's all.

The fact that they're all so well behaved and sociable is brilliant.
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Shona
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26-04-2008, 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by Westie_N View Post
Even Vinnie, Shona. He just likes to be unique, that's all.

The fact that they're all so well behaved and sociable is brilliant.
In all honesty,, I think its all down to royce and my old gsd, they were super sociable, so the younger dogs just kinda grow up thinking thats how life is kinda watching the older dogs interact with dogs and following there lead, I honestly dont know what I would do if I had a narky dog,, it could really upset the apple cart for my lot,, if you know what I mean,
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Westie_N
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26-04-2008, 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by Shona View Post
In all honesty,, I think its all down to royce and my old gsd, they were super sociable, so the younger dogs just kinda grow up thinking thats how life is kinda watching the older dogs interact with dogs and following there lead, I honestly dont know what I would do if I had a narky dog,, it could really upset the apple cart for my lot,, if you know what I mean,
Well, you're obviously doing well rearing them all seeing as Royce and your old GSD were very sociable to start with. It's great that the rest of them are that way inclined, too, without resorting to "smacking". Keep it up, you're obviously doing a grand job!

I do know what you mean about upsetting the balance. I think it's easy for dogs to pick up on habits from other dogs, especially the ones the live with.

I'd really love to meet them on a Dogsey walk one day. Hopefully I'll make one soon!
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Patch
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26-04-2008, 06:26 PM
Originally Posted by Snorri the Priest View Post
A TAP across the nose with two fingers, and a growly "NAUGHTY, NAUGHTY DOG!!!!" usually does the trick.

Snorri

You would probably be quite shocked at how many dogs end up in rescue because of being `snappy` and turn out to be head shy because of exactly this sort of thing
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