register for free
View our sister sites
Our sister sites
Our sister sites
Our sister sites
pod
Dogsey Veteran
pod is offline  
Location: UK
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,558
Female 
 
10-05-2007, 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by surannon View Post
So you'd be happy with a dog who looked nothing like their breed (type), had a poor temperament, poor health, was deformed (bad conformation) and had bad movement which puts extra strain on joints and soft tissue?

The breed standard is there as a guide to try and prevent all that.

Debs
I may be wrong but I don't think that's what Tee was meaning.

What I would imagine the pet owners would not want is the exaggerations that make a show dog stand out in the ring eg excessive coat in some of the Collie breeds. Certainly not a reqirement for the original pupose of the working dog and definitely not of benefit to the dog whether it is shown or not.

A Beardie with a sparse (by today's standards) coat certainly would look nothing like the modern day show winners and would be considered not of show quality, but it would conform to the standard, as did the breed ancestors just a few decades ago.

The breed standards have failed miserably in preventing all sorts of exaggerations and deformities creeping in to the showring.
Reply With Quote
Patch
Dogsey Veteran
Patch is offline  
Location: Virtual Showground
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 9,518
Female 
 
10-05-2007, 09:09 PM
I`ll be brief, [ for a change ]

I think dogs of any breed should only be bred from the very best examples both physically and mentally, and should only be sold to people who have done their research including in to all likely/ possible working traits of their prefered breed.

*By the very best physically I mean health tested and of healthy conformation - I don`t believe all breeds in the Showring are of healthy conformation so I can`t agree to Breed Standard across the board as being something to strive for/breed from no matter how many rosettes they may have won within their breed. For some breeds, yes, but for some, absolutely not, I`d honestly rather see some breeds stop altogether, [ for the dogs` sakes ], than continue in their present forms.
Reply With Quote
rachelsetters
Dogsey Veteran
rachelsetters is offline  
Location: East Sussex, UK
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,384
Female 
 
10-05-2007, 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by Ramble View Post
I think it is vital that before breeding every health check possible should be carried out on both parents. I believe that only parents that are healthy and of a good temprament should be bred from.
I don't think that said parents should have had to 'prove' themselves in a show or working environment, I don't think that they should have to be outstanding examples of the breed in order to be bred from, I just think they should be healthy and well socialised and well behaved.
Why not breed for a pet market? Most dogs are pets. I know very few working or show dogs. (Actually I know a LOT of working dogs but in a different way...) The majority of dogs are pets.
To only offer pet owners the choice of working or show dogs is, IMO wrong and somewhat dangerous. The 'family' nature or temprament of them isn't necessarily high on the breeders list of 'must haves' (even if a friendly outdgoing nature is in the breed standard, that is difficult to show in a show ring). A dog bred for the pet market, would, ideally, be a happy, friendly 'family' dog that is also healthy.

There has been another line of argument that 'pet' owners should go to rescue to find a pet. Granted, there are a vast number of dogs in rescue, some of which would actually make good working dogs as well. Why should the avergae Jo pet owner only have the choice of specific working or show dogs, or a rescue??? Why not a dog that has been bred for health and temprament...even if it is a first generation cross???

Breeding for temprament and health in a pet market does not make someone a byb...far from it, if the checks etc are in place it makes them a reputable breeder, who know that there will be a market for their pups, just because they are not breeding for show or for the dogs to work, doesn't make them a byb.

I would happily buy a mongrel whose parents I could meet and see that they had good tempraments and who had all their health checks done. Why not??
It is breeders like that, the ones that do it quietly for the pet market, that only breed the odd litter, that know exactly where their pups go to and take an interest in them etc, that we should be encouraging.
Well said - good point put across fantastically.

R
x
Reply With Quote
Ramble
Dogsey Veteran
Ramble is offline  
Location: dogsville
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,141
Female 
 
10-05-2007, 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by surannon View Post
So you'd be happy with a dog who looked nothing like their breed (type), had a poor temperament, poor health, was deformed (bad conformation) and had bad movement which puts extra strain on joints and soft tissue?

The breed standard is there as a guide to try and prevent all that.

Debs
That isn't what she was saying at all, Tee had already agreed with my post on this, stating that ALL dogs that are going to be bred from should have all the necessary health checks and be of a very good temperament, one that is particualrly suited to a pet home.So no deformity etc there then as all the health checks should be in place (including I would assume) an ok from the vet.
Apologies for puitting words in your mouth Tee if I got it wrong.
Reply With Quote
leo
Dogsey Veteran
leo is offline  
Location: Long Eaton
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 12,868
Male 
 
10-05-2007, 09:12 PM
a sound dog in health and temperment is more important to me than any thing else.
Reply With Quote
rachelsetters
Dogsey Veteran
rachelsetters is offline  
Location: East Sussex, UK
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,384
Female 
 
10-05-2007, 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by Patch View Post
I`ll be brief, [ for a change ]

I think dogs of any breed should only be bred from the very best examples both physically and mentally, and should only be sold to people who have done their research including in to all likely/ possible working traits of their prefered breed.

*By the very best physically I mean health tested and of healthy conformation - I don`t believe all breeds in the Showring are of healthy conformation so I can`t agree to Breed Standard across the board as being something to strive for/breed from no matter how many rosettes they may have won within their breed. For some breeds, yes, but for some, absolutely not, I`d honestly rather see some breeds stop altogether, [ for the dogs` sakes ], than continue in their present forms.
Patch I think you have put this very well.

I think for me when looking for a dog I look for temperament and health - then a good example of the breed. First and foremost is always health and temperament. The Show success was never a real consideration and to be honest we never set out to show at all that came as a hobbie and still is.

Success in the show ring is not forefront at all for me when purchasing any of my dogs - but having said that as we have now showed as a hobby we may take more notice of this in the future BUT my first thoughts will always be temperament and health.

At the end of the day if temperament and health are sorted then I know what 'type' I like and will always go with that. E.g. Max and Angus are of exactly the same parentage but with 2 years difference - cant' fault them in any way. Any show success we have is pure bonus to everything else - they are great companions and fit our family in every way.
Reply With Quote
Ramble
Dogsey Veteran
Ramble is offline  
Location: dogsville
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,141
Female 
 
10-05-2007, 09:33 PM
Thats it Rachel, most people want a healthy dog with a sound temperament first and foremost,the breed is important to a lot of them but not to the point of having to conform totally to the breed standard and be of show or working standard.

I think the most important thing for everyone, show/working or pet dog owners is health and temperament, beyond that, pet owners are looking for something different to people who want to show their dogs or people who want to work them. Pet dogs, temperament and health wise have to be incredible all rounders.
Reply With Quote
Heather and Zak
Dogsey Veteran
Heather and Zak is offline  
Location: South Wales
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,408
Female 
 
10-05-2007, 09:40 PM
I also think dogs should be bred for health and temperment. That should be the most important factor of all. Doesnt matter if it is 2" smaller or taller or coat the wrong colour etc etc as breed standard says. Maybe if dogs were bred purely for health and temperement than looks we wouldnt have so many dogs in rescue. We may loose some breeds many years down the line but would that really matter. Maybe there would not be so many problems healthwise with dogs and after all we should be breeding for the healthy dog and not think of ourselves by breeding just what we want them to look like. I detest byb. But people breeding from their homes just for pet dogs does not make them byb. This is purely my opinion. ( I think I will go and hide now as I know I will get slated but as I say this is just what I think.
Reply With Quote
Ramble
Dogsey Veteran
Ramble is offline  
Location: dogsville
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,141
Female 
 
10-05-2007, 09:41 PM
Originally Posted by Heather and Zak View Post
I also think dogs should be bred for health and temperment. That should be the most important factor of all. Doesnt matter if it is 2" smaller or taller or coat the wrong colour etc etc as breed standard says. Maybe if dogs were bred purely for health and temperement than looks we wouldnt have so many dogs in rescue. We may loose some breeds many years down the line but would that really matter. Maybe there would not be so many problems healthwise with dogs and after all we should be breeding for the healthy dog and not think of ourselves by breeding just what we want them to look like. I detest byb. But people breeding from their homes just for pet dogs does not make them byb. This is purely my opinion. ( I think I will go and hide now as I know I will get slated but as I say this is just what I think.
No, don't go and hide, health and temprament have to be paramount.
Reply With Quote
Patch
Dogsey Veteran
Patch is offline  
Location: Virtual Showground
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 9,518
Female 
 
10-05-2007, 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by Tee View Post
I don't think the majority of pet owners are bothered about all of those things which is why I believe there's nothing wrong with breeding for a pet market. It'd be interesting to do a survey to find out how much dog owners actually know about this.
Anyone wanting a dog whether as pet only, or for working, or Showing, or whatever, should know though, they should do their research fully on their prefered breed.

By the same token, breeders who sell to people without finding out how much they have researched first are equally at fault for not ensuring their pups only go to those who can be bothered to find out about, and fulfil the potential / possible needs of, the breed they choose, [ whichever breed it may be ].

Imo, anyone buying a specific breed should expect to see some or all of a breeds traits, and be willing and able to cater for them either in its bred for `job` or an equally stimulating positive activity for that dog should their pup grow up to have a strong work ethic of their breed/

They should research the physical side, past and present, or how else will they know they are getting a pup bred to have the best possible qualities ?
They should be able to say to a breeder, ` when I was checking the breed out, I came across old photos and the dogs looked very different years ago, why did they change and are the changes really beneficial to the dogs ?`


Also, just because a dog is sold as `pet only` does`nt mean it will grow up satisfied with being `pet only`. Not enough people realise that or are willing and able to cater for that dog should it turn out to have working traits of whatever the breed may be.


As an Agility instructor, when I have new people wanting to train, I want to know what their dog is so that before they start I can research that breed if I`m not already very familiar with it, so that I can help them achieve their best with that dog by utilising its potentially present `bred in` traits to their advantage in training and by having an idea which traits may be `difficult` and need [ positive ], redirection, so that if breed traits are present when they turn up for training, I can be more efficient for that dog and handler in their instruction.
If I can be bothered to do that for more breeds than I can count, why are so many people not bothered enough to research the potential traits of one breed of the puppy they want to buy with the intention of sharing that dogs life for an average of 15 years :smt075
Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 6 of 54 « First < 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 16 > Last »


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools


© Copyright 2016, Dogsey   Contact Us - Dogsey - Top Contact us | Archive | Privacy | Terms of use | Top