I think Emma's just about said everything that I was going to say. Great post! But I'll still find something to add

Adam ~ if you "find the level the dog feels BEFORE taking it near the sheep usually while walking the dog to the sheep area" don't you again run the risk of the dog making associations between the electric shock & whatever else could be going on at the time? Given that you say you have to use the ecollar (presumably several times) to get to the level the dog feels, then anything could be associated with the shock. e.g. a car going by, or just the particular location, or, even worse, the trainer/owner presence, given that the dog would have to be close to the trainer/owner at that time.

And then, after getting the ecollar to the "right" level, i.e. high enough to cause a visible reaction in the dog, you then take a dog, down the same route where it experienced an electric shock before, so it is then in this aroused & possibly frightened state, & show it a field of sheep !! I would think that even a dog that didn't react to sheep before, would be more likely to do so now, given that it is now in such an aroused state, so this would defeat the whole object!

You also say that the say that "the sensation of the collar is very mild", so what's the point of it? You could just as easily use a tug on the lead to divert the dog's attention.

But more to the point, the original post was about the banning of ecollars & by this I take it to mean banning the sale to members of the public. If ecollars are withdrawn from sale to the public & only ever available for use by experienced & knowledgeable dog trainers/behaviourists in very extreme circumstances i.e.

• when all other training & behavioural modification has failed,
• when the dog has no chance of an alternative home away from livestock or somewhere where livestock can be avoided & where it could get everything it needs ,
• when giving the dog up to a reputable rescue for rehoming is not an option because the dog wouldn't cope with kennel life,
• when sheep worrying is the ONLY unwanted behaviour,
• when the dog has been declined by farmers for use as a working sheep dog,
• when the dog is physically & mentally healthy in every other respect,
• when the only alternative is euthanasia for this dog,

then & only then, would I consider that possibly punishment used by an extremely experienced & knowledgeable dog trainer/behaviourist, might be an option to consider.

well done. It was. I hate people who torture dogs. I would confront one if I saw it it the park. Why should that be different on the net?
I`m not going to to join the band of people who can cold-bloodedly discuss what level of pain to give a dog before it changes its behaviour.
You blokes might. I can`t.
As I said before - it`s a forum. All opinions can be aired. Even ones you or I don`t like. But that also means answers of all colours are allowed (within forum rules) as well.

fair points.

albeit none that i raised

ethics regarding ecollars wasnt the ethics i was referring to

read wys and wilbur's posts opposing e collars

tney are great

Krusewalker ~ thank you for complimenting our posts. I try to remain non-judgemental of the poster & comment on the content of the post. I don't think it serves any purpose to personally criticise someone on an internet forum such as this, however emotive the subject is.

ClaireandDaisy ~ I completely understand that you're acting on the best of motives in condemning the use of ecollars & that you are passionate about stopping any cruelty to dogs. But maybe you risk alienating the people you criticise too strongly & personally ~ it may only make them more defensive & entrenched in their position. If you really want to stop cruelty to dogs perhaps educating these people & showing them alternatives would be a better way?

By the way ~ I don't think Adam is trying to be cruel to dogs, nor is he suggesting that the use of ecollars should be used as a method of first choice. But I do think that the reasoning behind his arguments for their use is flawed.

Wilbar

The stimulus is so mild that to creat a negative assocciation you would need to use it repatedly in a situation to get the association (like what I do with sheep) just walking to the field you will try and find the sensation at the time (once) and then leave it and work on that level in the field. Because the sensation is so mild (remember they will habituate to it rapidly) even if you did press it when a car went past the association won't occur, also most dogs will have experienced cars going past many times without association and as I repeat the sensation is so mild it's not significant enough to change the neutral asociation without repeated repitions.

Also a dog won't learn to change it's behaviour in response to the sensation and unless you show it how, which you do by activating the sensation and guiding the dog into the behaviour you want.

Re why it works, simply because of the nature of the sensation the dog expriences it as coming from it's behavuiour (and nothing else) so the dog doesn't learn to do it or not do it (behavuours) because of a tug on the lead were by the dog's learning from your interaction but just it's own behaviour. Also the way the collars work mean you apply the sensatiom until the behaviour changes and then stop. Tugging ect doesn't have such good timing.

BTW the dogs reaction is far milder than a reaction to a lead tug or similar.

Adam

Gotta go train will reply to Emma later.

So if the sensation is so mild that a dog can easily habituate to it, why wouldn't other very mild "punishments" work just as well? Even Cesar Millan's "tssk" or whatever he does, or a "no" could be used in exactly the same way as the "mild sensation", provided that it was used repeatedly as you describe?

But you've said that you've successfully used this "mild sensation", that a dog can easily choose to ignore, or habituate to, to control something as biologically hard-wired as prey drive in front of a field of sheep!! If the sensation is so mild, even though it may have negative associations for the dog, I find it difficult to see how it could compete with a field of sheep for a dog with high prey drive?

But I thought the whole point of this thread was about banning the sale of ecollars ~ if the instructions are used as you describe then I can easily see that this "mild sensation" won't make an iota of difference for something like predatory behaviour, so the temptation to turn up the dial to a much heavier shock would be too much for most desperate owners to ignore ~ with all the awful pain, panic & misery described throughout this thread. And if ecollars are as easy & effective to use as you describe, with just a "mild sensation" then why is it necessary for them to have such high levels of shock built in to them in the first place?

I think you`re a troll. Please prove you`re not.

well beasically the welsh Assesmbly havent banned them because they are a non painful humane form of training, have they. £20K fine,. 6 months in jail. Thats how nasty they are.

well said wibur

across the dog forums their are 2 well known e collar trainers notorious for posting in a non professional personal pointless way

i dont think it serves our cause any to ape their style

gosh clair

you were doing so well their with some actual good reasoned counter points, then you have to go and spoil it the last minute.

this comment above is just plain silly, not to mention illogical.

as AP's posts dont even fit the definitions of troll behaviour

besides, i know he isnt, he posts on another dog forum i go on.

considering you were making some really good points, why not just stick to them?
surely they are strong enough in their own right?