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View Poll Results: Should dog agressive dogs be allowed to attend normal dog classes?
Yes, they have the right to training the same as the next dog! 47 63.51%
No, its not fair on the other dogs! 27 36.49%
Not really bothered either way! 0 0%
Voters: 74. You may not vote on this poll - please see pinned thread in this section for details.



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Patch
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15-09-2006, 11:58 PM
Originally Posted by Kazz View Post
I totally agree, especially as most people who attend training classes aren't expecting "aggresive" dogs to attend.

I certainly cant speak for other clubs, especially as the one I`m with is Agility, not Obedience, but with us, we give prospective new members a booklet, [ plus we encourage people to come and watch before they start training with us so they know how we train, and can see the dogs already in training etc ], and in our booklet it does make it clear we accept dog aggressives and that we offer experienced help with them, so no one who trains with us is suprised by their presence when they do join, and are taught how to be around them, plus we have an alternative same level class they can switch to if they are at all uneasy :smt001

I think one of the hardest and most negative things an owner of a dog aggressive has to face is the `disapproving` looks other people give them when the aggression is often no fault of the owners, and DA dogs do pick up on that, how others and their dogs behave toward them [ especially other dogs being reeled in close in an `alarmed` manner, which can actually make the aggression and need for self protection worse indirectly for the DA dog.

I find that when people at training are fully aware of why the DA dog is the way it is, and are confident that safety measures are in place, that they have more compassion and understanding and, for instance, will smile rather than scowl [ or worse ], and appear much more relaxed so giving off much more positive `vibes` and body language, which all helps that little bit more toward helping the DA dog learn that they dont need to be that way :smt001
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Sarahbeag
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19-09-2006, 02:15 PM
difficult to say a blanket no as they have to learn to become more used to other dogs. I think the owners should be more responsible with an aggressive dog and keep a tight rein on them. Eg, one of the agility classes I go to, at the end of the class, all dogs have a good old play off lead and the one or two more aggressive dogs are kept on lead with the exception of one - being a young JRT. This dog has already attacked my own and at least one other dog that I know about. So, in this instance perhaps I should say 'no' - maybe one to one training would be better
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kyektulu
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19-09-2006, 04:04 PM
Personally I think that it might be a better idea for dog trainers to hold seperate classes for dogs that are aggressive, then there behaviour wont be rubbed off upon other dogs.

Then when thier behaviour is sorted out, they can go on normal classes.
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bint
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19-09-2006, 09:03 PM
IMHO the more you treat an 'aggressive dog' like an 'aggressive dog' the bigger the problem. The tense vibes from the owner most definately affect the behaviour of the dog. I learnt from personal experience with our rescue dog. His 'aggressive' behaviour improved 100% when I learnt to relax & not tighten his lead when I saw an approaching dog.
How does a dog learn to be 'socially acceptable' if he is segregated?
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sjpurt
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22-09-2006, 08:53 AM
i feel for both sides as we all need to learn but i do feel that if a dog is that bad maybe a some home visits first to find the trigger before attending a class is best. I feel for the owner as like us they do want the best for there dogs which should mean alot to anyone as they are for life and the help they need would make it better for them. but i do feel sorry for the people that are paying to go class and have to be thinking of 2 things at once is the dog to close and try and training.
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bint
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22-09-2006, 03:24 PM
I agree with you sjpurt & think that one to one help would probably benefit the owner a lot as well, in many cases. Obviously safety in class is very important for all. Depends on the level of aggression & other factors. My own rescue dog was aggressive when we took him, most probably because he had not been socialised when young.
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colliemad
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23-09-2006, 09:43 AM
I haven't read all the posts on this as I just don't have the time this morning!

Kelly is a shy sensitive dog, I knew this when I picked him as a pup and I put a lot of work into building his confidence BEFORE he even went to puppy classes. I carried him out with deef on a walk, took him to friends who had really friendly confident dogs and then I took him to puppy classes when he was 11 weeks old and able to go out on a lead. I always train mine at home, a little bit every day and the classes for me have always been about socialization rather than training. We had been going about 4/5 weeks and he was getting almost cocky with his attitude and really enjoying it, there were some older puppies in the group but he got on well with all of them. Then a lady arrived with a small terrier cross thingy, he was a rescue and they put her in the puppy class. The second week he was there I had taken Kel to get a drink of water and was walking away from the bowl with him on my left watching me as this woman approached with her dog also on her left. We were not very close yet this dog lunged past her and me and latched onto kel so fast that I never actually saw him coming. I had to choke him (literally!!) to make him let go and still choking him as he was now going demented to get me too I almost threw him back at her, her response was "oh, he's not good with other dogs" kel was not physically injured but he was terrified and had wee'd himself, when I took him outside he was also sick, he was approx 16 weeks old. He is now 5 and to this day any dog that rushes up to say "hi" as far as he is concerned is attacking and he will immediately snap at them, he rarely backs it up as he is not an aggressive dog but if they keep coming he will fight back. He is an absolute sweetheart if he is introduced properly to other dogs and he never approaches dogs that he doesn't know. We have had lots that try to join in when they are all running around on a walk and he ignores them, it's just those that rush up to his face to say "hi" that get a reaction Kelly is 100% trustworthy with puppies and mostly ok with little dogs if they are not too pushy, it is easy to spot the ones that I know he won't cope with. It's just dogs his size and larger that are the problem. I think this is because when he was a pup a dog his size had a go so therefore little dogs are safe. If you saw him with a pup playing you would never think he had a problem, he accepted Sol when I brought him home as though he couldn't quite believe his luck and to this day he puts up with so much from him. He is just as tolerant with children, give a child a football and Kelly is happy for hours.

I don't think dog aggressive dogs should be excluded from training but I do think they need to be trained separately from other dogs. If they are then intoduced to a group class then people need to be made aware of potential problems. We were given no warning about this dog and the trainer put it in a puppy class!

I never got Kel back into that group, and attempts to get him in anywhere else failed miserably as he just couldn't cope with it all. I have complete control over him out on a walk and I know all the signs when he is likely to snap but I get really fed up with being told to muzzle him by some stupid owner that has allowed their dog to come charging up to him when I have put him on a lead as they approach!
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Hannah
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23-09-2006, 10:33 AM
Colliemad what a horrible experience for Kelly and you, and what a shame that all your hard work on socialisation was wasted by this one incident! I think this is more the kind of thing I ment when I started this thread, its more about irresponsible owners and how theire actions can effect others, which I think is the answer here I dont think anyone objects to dog agressive dogs in training classes as long as the situation is managed properly and the owners ensure they have full control of their dog at all times!
I would personally be gutted and very angry if an incident like this had happened when Loki was a puppy and first went to puppy classes, I also (as im sure most people on here do!) put alot of time and effort into socialising Loki with other dogs!
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colliemad
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23-09-2006, 12:17 PM
Hi Hannah

It wasn't completely wasted, I never got him back to the confident pup he started out as and I am careful with him with dogs that we don't know but other than that he is treated the same as the others. He is very confident with people and once he knows a dog he is brilliant with them, there are several that he drags me to meet at shows or on a walk, I just have to be careful that he is introduced properly and the other dog/s are not allowed to upset him before he has had a chance to get used to them. If this happens he takes a little longer to relax with them and so far only one dog has proved to be a complete "no no" with him and that is mainly because it constantly harasses him to play and he gets fed up with it. The hairy grey beastie in the second pic is kelly's girlfriend Sal, he has known her since he was 11 months old, if he spots her at a show he drags me to her, he is crazy about her and it's very sweet. The black and white dog next to her belongs to the same person and is a little more "full on", the sort of dog that can sometimes be a problem but as you can see from both pics he got on just fine with her because he was allowed to meet her in a place that he is confident in and he got used to her without being hassled.





Oh, yes, I was angry, like you wouldn't believe but what I said at the time cannot be repeated on here. It was a few minutes before I reacted as I wanted to make sure he was ok, but believe me I did react
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Wolfie
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23-09-2006, 11:22 PM
I'm not going to answer this poll as I have a dog aggressive dog myself.

I've usually found that with time and patience, dog aggression can be overcome. With my dog, it's the lack of 'dog socialisation' that causes him to be like it. What I have took for dog aggression, has been in fact the lack or puppy socialisation.

Putting a dog aggressice dog in the correct class can reap huge rewards. Like everything else, they need to learn how to behave properly
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