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Gnasher
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03-06-2016, 08:18 AM
Originally Posted by Crysania View Post
Here's the reality of these dogs: They were often bred to be dog aggressive, not human aggressive. So there are still plenty out there with some serious dog aggression issues. They SHOULD generally be friendly to people. Even dogs bred for fighting should not attack their handlers.

And good breeders are trying to breed OUT the dog aggression while still retaining their tenacity.

I'm very much against breed specific legislation. it does nothing to address the root problem: humans. Throughout history various dog breeds have been the "super predators" -- German Shepherds, Rottweilers, Dobermans, even Bloodhounds in the late 19th and early 20th century. There have always been dog breeds that are vilified. You can always tell it's a movie from the 80s, for instance, if the "evil guard dog" is a Doberman. They were seen as the "super predators" at that time, then flipping over to the pit bull. Because of the advent of the internet, the pit bull has remained at the "super predator" status for a long time. The media does not help this by always focusing on THOSE dogs and not OTHER dogs who attack and politicians are not helping by creating a band-aid to address the problem.

The issue is and always has been HUMANS. Not the dogs.

The media presents a dog as a "super predator."
People who want a tough attack dog see that and say "That's the dog I want."
They get dogs of that breed, even breed them.
They abuse and neglect them.
Their dog gets loose and attacks someone (or someone approaches their chained dog and gets attacked).
The media reports on this "super predator dog."
And the whole cycle continues.

BSL has been proven completely pointless. In places where there is BSL, there are STILL as many dog attacks. Some people simply turn to other, non-banned breeds. Sometimes ones that are larger and more powerful (e.g. Rottweilers, Cane Corsos, etc.). Others just get those "illegal" breeds because they think it makes them look even tougher. And on and on it goes.

I live in a state where BSL itself is banned. And there are many many bully breed dogs around. While some are definitely dog aggressive, I also meet many complete love bugs who play with my dogs and are just normal dogs with large blocky heads.
I've not read the whole way through this thread yet, but I had to jump straight in before doing so to say bloody well said, Crysania! You have absolutely got it totally and 100% right ... well done.
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waggytail
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03-06-2016, 08:35 AM
I would add one more line...

Humans purposely and selectively breed a "Super-Predator"

and then...

The media presents a dog as a "super predator."
People who want a tough attack dog see that and say "That's the dog I want."
They get dogs of that breed, even breed them.
They abuse and neglect them.
Their dog gets loose and attacks someone (or someone approaches their chained dog and gets attacked).
The media reports on this "super predator dog."
And the whole cycle continues.
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Gnasher
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03-06-2016, 08:57 AM
Originally Posted by waggytail View Post
I would add one more line...

Humans purposely and selectively breed a "Super-Predator"

and then...

The media presents a dog as a "super predator."
People who want a tough attack dog see that and say "That's the dog I want."
They get dogs of that breed, even breed them.
They abuse and neglect them.
Their dog gets loose and attacks someone (or someone approaches their chained dog and gets attacked).
The media reports on this "super predator dog."
And the whole cycle continues.
Yup! spot on ... it always comes back to humans cocking up, never the fault of the dogs themselves. When when when are we ever going to learn?
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Trouble
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03-06-2016, 08:57 AM
Originally Posted by waggytail View Post
Great Britain:

In this country since 1991 enacted the Act on dangerous dogs which was completed in 1997. According to this document ban on the cultivation, sale, purchase, exchange and promotionis introduced for the following dogs:

1.American Pitbull Terrier
2.Dogo Argentino
3.Fila Brasileiro (Brazilian Mastiff)
4.Tosa Inu

The above-mentioned breeds must be muzzled and kept on a leash in public places, be registered, have insurance, be spayed, stamped and have a chip.
The law applies to the whole country except for the Northern Ireland.


Ireland:

Restrictions on the ownership of dangerous dogs breeds entered in 1998. They must be kept under strict control by people of 16 years or older, be licensed, walked on a short leash (no more than 2 metres) and muzzled in public places. As especially dangerous breeds in Ireland are recognized:

1.American Pitbull Terrier
2.English Bull Terrier
3.Akita Inu
4.Bullmastiff
5.Doberman Pinscher
6.Staffordshire Bull Terrier
7.German Shepherd Dog
8.Rhodesian Ridgeback

USA:

In America there is no Federal law that imposed a ban and restrictions on dangerous breeds of dogs across the country. There is a law that prohibits the conduct of dog fighting, as well as training these dogs for fighting and their movement within the country.
There is a prohibition on the housing of large dogs in the cantonments of the U.S.А. army like Pitbulls, Rottweilers and hybrids of these species. Municipal authorities had taken several hundreds of laws banning the ownership of such dogs as:

1.Staffordshire Bull Terrier
2.American Pitbull Terrier
3.American Staffordshire Terrier
4.Dogo Argentino
5.American Bulldog
6.Tosa Inu
7.Dogo Canario
8.Cane Corso
9.Fila Brasileiro (Brazilian Mastiff)
10.Akita Inu
11.Dogue de Bordeaux
12.Bandog
13.Bullmastiff
14.Doberman Pinscher
15.Ca de Bou (Majorca Mastiff)
16.Kuvasz
17.German Shepherd
18.Mastino Neapolitano
19.Rottweiler
20.Chow Chow
21.Japanese Mastiff
22.Mixtures of wolves
23.Hybrids of the above-mentioned breeds

Limitations of ownership in some States include: the age of the owner must be at least 21 years, the amount of liability insurance must be 100 000 $, prohibition the sale of dangerous dogs, the dog can given only to relatives, at private homes be sure to hang warning signs.


(Copied from https://petolog.com/articles/banned-dogs)
So in the UK you just want the already banned breeds to be banned
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Crysania
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03-06-2016, 10:28 AM
So...you want to go with the crap laws that mean nothing? Ok then.

Out of curiosity have you ever even MET these dogs? Honestly? Because these laws are BS and don't actually DO anything except restrict good dog owners. They are DUMB plain and simple and they don't help.
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Crysania
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03-06-2016, 10:30 AM
Originally Posted by waggytail View Post
I would add one more line...

Humans purposely and selectively breed a "Super-Predator"

and then...

The media presents a dog as a "super predator."
People who want a tough attack dog see that and say "That's the dog I want."
They get dogs of that breed, even breed them.
They abuse and neglect them.
Their dog gets loose and attacks someone (or someone approaches their chained dog and gets attacked).
The media reports on this "super predator dog."
And the whole cycle continues.
Nope. That does not fit, sorry. Stop with your hatred of these breeds. You're getting as bad as that idiot, NickyAnn about this. You cannot breed a "super predator." It's a nonsense thing. They take a dog that is a good size and muscular and then abuse it. PERIOD. End of story. It is a HUMAN problem.

I'm starting to think we just need to ban humans. That would make life a lot easier.
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Chris
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03-06-2016, 12:23 PM
I tend to keep out of this one because it's a very emotive issue, but you are wrong Crysania. Just as you can selectively breed to breed out aggression, you can selectively breed that aggression in.

We still have underground dog fighting here where they do just that and some of the incidents reported, I suspect have been the result of that.

Bring in as many laws as they like and without enforcement, they are a waste of time. For example, by this stage there should be no pitbulls in the uk, but we all know there are.

Let's also not forget that the Dangerous Dogs Act doesn't just cover banned breeds, but it's rarely enforced in respect of aggressive dogs unless the dog has done some serious maiming or killed.

We also have breeding laws. Are they enforced? Rarely!
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Crysania
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03-06-2016, 12:52 PM
I'm sorry but I think I know more about these dogs considering how common they are here.

But let me add this:

1. Dogs bred for dog fighting are bred to be DOG aggressive. Not human aggressive. Human aggressive ones are culled because the handlers go into the ring to pull the dogs out. They CANNOT be bitten. And YES dog aggression is certainly a potential issue with the breed.

2. Those dogs are often dog aggressive through abuse and neglect and horrible treatment when young. They are tossed in with dog aggressive dogs and taught to fight for their lives. If they step up to the plate and defend themselves, they win. They get to live. If not, they end up as bait dogs.

3. Some of the incidents are probably because of those rings, certainly.

4. Even dogs rescued from dog fighting rings are often still human friendly. We had a huge case here from a dog fighting ring. Several dogs were adopted out of it eventually, some even becoming therapy dogs. These were dogs who were forced to right and used as bait, abused and neglected and STILL loved humans. THAT is what a pit bull should be, terrible as it is. They love their humans, foibles and all. They MAY be dog aggressive and in some cases if the humans they end up with are not careful, someone can get bitten when trying to break up a fight. But again...human problem there.

This is still a HUMAN problem. When well over 99% of pit bulls are just normal dogs, some with dog aggression, plenty without it, why would you ban a whole breed because a few humans are piece of crap? It simply makes no sense. And considering where BSL exists, dog bites have NOT gone down, it shows that it simply doesn't work. Bad people will be bad people no matter what breed of dog they own.
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waggytail
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03-06-2016, 01:46 PM
Crysania, I do not have ANY hatred for ANY dog. Your comments are really unfair here as all the way through this thread I have tried to debate this very emotive issue with sensitivity and honesty.

I agree that this is ultimately a human problem, it was humans that selectively bred these dogs for aggression, it is humans that continue to do this and it is humans that continue to abuse and misuse these poor dogs?

You have raised the point about dog aggression. Aggression towards any animal is a serious issue, I would be equally concerned about the level of Dog to Dog aggression you describe, I also understand that statistics have shown that this IS, in fact, a factor in dog attacks on people?

Article-
https://dogbitelaw.com/vicious-dogs/...rous-to-people

I accept that the current laws (both BSL and DDA) may not be working as well as they should and I understand that BSL in particular has been much debated but I have to say from everything I’ve read on this subject I do still believe that a dogs breed is a major influence on potential temperament and behaviour and therefore it will always have to play some part in the law?. Sorry but certain breeds ARE potentially more dangerous than others, the breeds that have had bans or restrictions placed on them were highlighted because they were deemed high risk, Sorry but I can completely understand this?

Many experts have expressed their views on this very subject, it is worth noting that even though many support a “Deed not Breed” approach they STILL acknowelege that Breed is an issue.

Article-
http://safetybeforebulldogs.blogspot.../label/Experts

Chris, Thank you for your comments and for highlighting the issues that we face here in the UK
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Crysania
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04-06-2016, 12:05 PM
Originally Posted by waggytail View Post
Crysania, I do not have ANY hatred for ANY dog. Your comments are really unfair here as all the way through this thread I have tried to debate this very emotive issue with sensitivity and honesty.
Banning all dogs of a particular breed shows either hatred or fear. Which is it?

I agree that this is ultimately a human problem, it was humans that selectively bred these dogs for aggression, it is humans that continue to do this and it is humans that continue to abuse and misuse these poor dogs?
Yes it is humans. SOME humans. So why do you want to punish good dog owners and good dogs because of the actions of a few? That's like saying "Well some bad people hurt other people when they get drunk, so now no one gets to drink alcohol." Or worse, "Some people drink and then drive so now no one gets to drive." Do you even see how ridiculous that statement is? Because seriously. If over 99% of a dog breed just lives their lives out normally then why do you want to consider it a "bad breed" and either ban it or make it a nightmare to own the breed so people don't?

You have raised the point about dog aggression. Aggression towards any animal is a serious issue, I would be equally concerned about the level of Dog to Dog aggression you describe, I also understand that statistics have shown that this IS, in fact, a factor in dog attacks on people?
It is only a factor because people do stupid things to break up a dog fight and don't know how to. Redirected aggression if someone is close enough CAN be a problem. But is not always a case.

And as for dog aggression? Again SOME...and less all the time. I've actually only met one truly dog aggressive pit bull while out and about. The rest have been either indifferent or super friendly and wanting to play. And dog aggression is a problem in MANY breeds and can happen to many dogs who are not properly socialized. I have met dog aggressive German Shepherds, Golden Retrievers, Labs, and a Shiba Inu, among various other breeds and mixes. Dog aggression is much easier to handle if the owner is smart. Keep your dog on a leash, away from other dogs, and if the dog is SERIOUSLY dog aggressive, muzzle it to protect others.

"There has been no published study of the number of dog bites suffered by humans which resulted from an attack or attempted attack by one dog against another dog."

So there's been no study but one random dude says he's sure it's a factor. Um ok...no. Sorry. I wouldn't use a site that considers that research. What a crock. And any article that calls an animal doing something that comes natural "deranged" is suspect.

ALSO OMG...the "expert" cited? IS THE PERSON WHO DOES THE WEBSITE. Come on. Do you really want to use this as a source? The researcher in me CRINGES.

Sorry but certain breeds ARE potentially more dangerous than others, the breeds that have had bans or restrictions placed on them were highlighted because they were deemed high risk, Sorry but I can completely understand this?
ANY LARGER DOG CAN DO DAMAGE. Any dog who is of a decent size can kill. ANY. Period.

And those breeds were highlighted because politicians are idiots. A dog attacks and people immediately want the breed banned because they look "bad." Come on...how can you even buy this load of nonsense? Again, how many of these dogs do you ACTUALLY know? Have met? Have interacted with? I'm just curious because you talk like someone who is buying the media nonsense without actually knowing a thing about the breed.


Many experts have expressed their views on this very subject, it is worth noting that even though many support a “Deed not Breed” approach they STILL acknowelege that Breed is an issue.

Article-
http://safetybeforebulldogs.blogspot.../label/Experts[/quote]

Those "experts" are anything but. They can't distinguish between a child and a small animal? What kind of person understands dogs believes that rot?

That is a biased site full of non-information.

Chris, Thank you for your comments and for highlighting the issues that we face here in the UK[/QUOTE]
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