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Jackie
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28-01-2013, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by Firstlight --Shock collars: Yes I use them, (as do a lot of my clients), and there is nothing "sad" about it, when done properly. It is a tool, nothing more, and like all tools is only as good/bad as the person holding the transmitter.
Do you mean the dog gets a good or bad shock......... depending on the person holding the transmitter.

How does a dog interpret a good shock from a bad one
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Wysiwyg
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28-01-2013, 09:04 AM
I am afraid I have no interest really in discussing this topic; no offence, but it's all been done before, hundreds of times. I made my mind up long ago after being very uncomfortable with hurting physically my wonderful dog companions. There's no way I'd ever go back. I look forward in dog training, as in life

No doubt I will pop in if the thread continues (or I might not, as I don't have much time these days to spend on forums) but suffice it to say that I, along with many others, love using reward based methods, they work if done correctlyas shown by many top trainers and handlers who use them, and really there is no need to use force.

It is to me, very sad when people talk about not just using force, but how much to use, and when ... why can people not move forward and enjoy their dogs, and not expect automatons? We never expect as much of ourselves, after all!

Out of interest, I read this a while ago. The author got a lot of flack as he trained dogs with shock collars for many years (US gundog trainer) .. yet when he worked his dogs as SAR at 9/11 he realised they were not doing so well and asked for help from trainers who used reward based training; they helped him get his dogs working much better and he was grateful to them for their help

Don't just read it about shock collars, read it as pertaining to force in general.

http://www.shotgunlife.com/wingshoot...k-collars.html


"Mr. Milner realized that positive reinforcement could be the solution to his difficulty with Tennessee Task Force 1. He located top clicker trainer, Karen Pryor, who is based in Boston. At the time, she was preparing to conduct a seminar in Tampa, Florida. Mr. Milner wasted no time in booking flights for the entire Tennessee Task Force 1 to attend Ms. Pryor’s sessions.

He subsequently invited two consummate clicker trainers to Tennessee, Steve White and Kathy Sdao, both from Washington state. They worked individually with members of the Tennessee Task Force 1 dog team.

“The end result was I got the dogs and handlers trained in six months instead of 18,” Mr. Milner said of Tennessee Task Force 1. “The lesson I learned from that was the major benefit of positive training is that it’s three times easier for new trainers to learn.”

Deeper research into clicker training supported his initial observations. He referenced statistics from Guide Dogs for the Blind. In 2005, the organization switched from compulsion training to positive reinforcement. He cited that their pass rate on the dogs increased from 50 percent to 80 percent, while training for the blind handlers declined from six week to two weeks — another instance of that 300-percent improvement."


As I said, I'm not going to get into any real debate about this but I know what I think and I am really happy that trainers/owners who are enlightened are starting to "think dog" and work with dogs, instead of hurting them or making them depressed and frightened.

Dog training should be a fun partnership, after all, not torture! For owner, trainer and dog.

Wys


"
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Wysiwyg
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28-01-2013, 09:14 AM
Originally Posted by Firstlight View Post
...I cannot provide your request for an example of a behavior I would wish to stop with an e-collar, because I do not use the collar that way, nor does anyone else who knows what they are doing. If you view the collar as a punishment tool, I can understand why you think they are "disgusting". You are not the only one with this mistaken idea, believe me.
Perhaps you then use it as a training tool using it as negative reinforcement. I think that's actually worse, particularly when dogs are set up to "beat the stim" etc etc.

It's vile. There's no trust and no relationship in reality, just dogs who brown nose and will do anything to avoid the stim. Nice way to live and work with dogs - not.

Of course, the collar IS punishment tool - because with neg. reinf. you must know that pos. punishment has to come first. The nasty thing has to be added for the dog to avoid. Yuk.
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Wysiwyg
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28-01-2013, 09:21 AM
Originally Posted by Firstlight View Post
...
Wysiwyg, in post # 20 (which quotes my original post): You posted that "negative punishment", (I believe you meant negative reinforcement?) is "usually withholding something the dog wants". What other types of NR do you use?

Punishment vs. correction: Semantics here. To me, "punishment" aims to stop an unwanted behavior, right now. "Correction" occurs when a dog willfully disobeys a command installed via the first two stages of training.
I forgot to answer your question above. No, I don't mean negative reinforcement, I mean what I said - negative punishment

Semantics re the other? Not really. I find people love to use the word "correction" when in fact they are actually punishing the dog physically. It's a euphemism for the application of a physical aversive.

It sounds nicer, it sounds like a kindly (?!) schoolteacher - but at the end of the day it usually consists of scruff shakes, shocks (stims lol), yells etc etc. Take your pick.



Wys
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smokeybear
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28-01-2013, 09:40 AM
I have not met any wilful dogs, nor have I met any dogs which are deliberately disobedient.

I have met lots which have not been trained skilfully with sound techniques and thus are confused and unable to determine what is required.

I have met lots which have not been provided with sufficient motivation.

Dogs are obedient to the laws of learning, they learn by cause and effect and by what works and what does not.

If you CHOOSE to use an electric collar that is a conscious decision which you have opted for as it suits you.

You do not HAVE to use one.

Many of us have extremely reliable dogs in competition in various disciplines at National level without using such devices.

I have enough tools in my well stocked box to be able to achieve what I want without the need to use one.

I think I am too cheap to spend money on a device that I have no need for and which I could spend on more training courses for me to widen my knowledge and repertoire.
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Meg
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28-01-2013, 10:00 AM
Originally Posted by Firstlight View Post
And finally, in the interest of educating myself, how do you deal with a disobedient "imperfect" dog?
Hi Firstflight , for me there is not such a thing as 'a disobedient or imperfect dog'.
Why? Because for me the definition of disobedience means wilfully choosing to disregard a command and in order to do this the dog would require a cognitive ability it doesn't posses.

If a dog fails to follow a command it usually means one of a number of things, I will give a few examples...
....the words of command are not understood because the dog has not learnt to associate the words with a particular action,
....the circumstances prevailing when the command is given are associated with fear eg requesting a dog to 'come' up a flight of stairs when it fears stairs ,
....there is a more powerful stimulus/reward available to the dog which calls into play its natural instincts and this counters the command because the dog has not been successfully conditioned to ignore the stimulus eg prey.

How do you deal with a dog not following a command ? Adopt a method of training appropriate to that particular dog using whatever reward motivates them best .
Then practice the required behaviour over and over until it becomes second nature.

If for some reason the dog is unable to be trained to adopt a required behavioured the other option is use avoidance eg if a dog chases sheep it is not let off the lead when they are around.


ETA Like a number of other members here I have no interest in discussing this topic.
If you do a site search on the topic of e collars you will find a number of threads where they have been discussed in depth.
As far as I am concerned anyone who has to resort to the use of torture to train an animal should refrain from owning animals.
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Malpeki
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28-01-2013, 10:35 AM
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
Why am not surprised..........

You will find on this forum (as its mainly UK based) that you are not going to make many friends or have any members agree with due to your use of e.collars.......... they are barbaric.



Wilfully disobedient and disobedient imperfect
very well said and I just can join you from over from Germany

over here not once it's still allowed to use them, since Feb. 2006 by the animal welfare / protection act
in Austria already since 2005

so I guess, here you're at the wrong address with your inhuman and cruel request

just sorry for your dog
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Tang
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28-01-2013, 10:40 AM
Malpeki you say your English is not perfect. But I think you've summed up perfectly how most here feel about this subject.
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Malpeki
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28-01-2013, 10:40 AM
Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
...anyone who has to resort to the use of torture to train an animal should refrain from owning animals.
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Malpeki
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28-01-2013, 10:41 AM
Originally Posted by Tangutica View Post
Malpeki you say your English is not perfect. But I think you've summed up perfectly how most here feel about this subject.
thank you
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