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Collie Convert
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23-04-2011, 09:42 AM

Building drive/enthusiasm

Maverick is a year old now and i'm struggling to build the drive and enthusiasm needed.
He is toy motivated a little, in the last 6weeks or so i have finally been able to get him to play tuggy (he wouldnt grip before) he like the ball to a degree- he will chase after it if alone but if the others are there he just wants to herd/chase them)
Ive tried numerous toys, tried keeping them 'special' so he doesnt have access to them unless i decide etc, i can get the enthusiasm there for a few minutes at a time, and we have been able to do some lovely bits of agility- and with speed, just not much before he switches off.

I know he is still relatively young, and is slow maturing (in body and mind) but i'm not used to this! and tbh its a little disappointing. My other collie will work herself into the ground if i let her and she has been like this since she was a tiny puppy.


I'm just not sure what else i can try (food is ok to him, but i dont really like using food generally in training). Im sure the work ethic/drive in his genes skipped a generation with him!!!
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smokeybear
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23-04-2011, 09:58 AM
I'm just not sure what else i can try (food is ok to him, but i dont really like using food generally in training).

In dog training surely it is what the DOG likes to use in training not you?
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rune
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23-04-2011, 10:00 AM
Chucking food around in circuits is good.

Why don't you like using it?

rune
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smokeybear
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23-04-2011, 10:01 AM
It is very difficult to work a dog that does not appear to have the drive you have been used to but that does not mean your dog will not be a successful competitor.

If there is one thing I have learned over the years it is to work the dog you have on the end of the lead, not the one you THINK you have or the one you WISHED you had!

Can I ask you something?

Have you determined whether or not your dog is ball chaser or a tugger (by preference)?

Also have you tried teaching your dog to chase a ball/tug for food?
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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23-04-2011, 10:03 AM
I had the same with Ben to get him to fetch
basically I just had to do really tiny seshs - sometimes just one fetch then put the ball back while he was still wanting more

I also used food to get him to like playing with toys - rewarded him for the fetch

can I ask why you dont like using food? It can be realy useful to mark a behaviour - and you can use it to build toy drive
I have seen toys with mesh in that you put a hotdog sausage in to teach them to tug - or you can use tennis balls with treats inside for fetch - or target pots for sendaways
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Collie Convert
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23-04-2011, 10:24 AM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
It is very difficult to work a dog that does not appear to have the drive you have been used to but that does not mean your dog will not be a successful competitor.

If there is one thing I have learned over the years it is to work the dog you have on the end of the lead, not the one you THINK you have or the one you WISHED you had!

Can I ask you something?

Have you determined whether or not your dog is ball chaser or a tugger (by preference)?

Also have you tried teaching your dog to chase a ball/tug for food?
I should have explained a little more- i use food to proof his contacts and weaves, but i dont like using it as a motivator on the course, even the smallest amount of easily eaten food takes him a couple of minutes to eat and make sure there is no more around and by then he has totally switched off.

With regards to the tug or ball chaser...do you mean what he would choose if both were offered? Iv'e done this before and he has chased the ball halfway, then changed his mind and returned for a half hearted game of tuggy.

He is very self indulgent when it comes to play, he would much prefer me to give him said toy so he could wander off ina corner and chew it at his leisure

Edited to add: He is generally not a confident dog at all, i do think this plays a factor possibly.
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smokeybear
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23-04-2011, 10:32 AM
I should have explained a little more- i use food to proof his contacts and weaves, but i dont like using it as a motivator on the course, even the smallest amount of easily eaten food takes him a couple of minutes to eat and make sure there is no more around and by then he has totally switched off.


Okay so when would you use a toy rather than food, in what way?

Have you built up a variable reinforcement schedule so the dog never knows when he is getting rewarded in order to extend duration?

With regards to the tug or ball chaser...do you mean what he would choose if both were offered? Iv'e done this before and he has chased the ball halfway, then changed his mind and returned for a half hearted game of tuggy.

Well I would not offer both, but IME dogs tend to fall into one group or another eg they eithe prefer the chase and carry of the ball or the tuggy; of course dogs will do BOTH, but usually there is a preference.

If he is happy to toddle off into the corner with a toy, what would he choose to take and what does he do when there?

If this sounds peculiar, I often find it useful to find how orally fixated dogs are on stuff;

Sometimes it does take a while to find the perfect toy, ie size, texture, taste etc

I trained one of my dogs to do anything for food, even play, the other I trained to take food instead of a toy when I required it;
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Collie Convert
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23-04-2011, 10:43 AM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post


Okay so when would you use a toy rather than food, in what way?
On all other parts of the course, after a jump sequence for example I would most likely throw the toy as he commits to the last jump so he drives on towards the toy. Or, maybe just after one jump and i ask him for an "in" towards me i would then play tug with him.
If were talking training away from agility and im doing obedience training for exaple, then i usually do a number of exercises then release at random points into a game of tug.


Have you built up a variable reinforcement schedule so the dog never knows when he is getting rewarded in order to extend duration?
Yes, i reinforce at various different times or after different obstacles etc.

Well I would not offer both, but IME dogs tend to fall into one group or another eg they eithe prefer the chase and carry of the ball or the tuggy; of course dogs will do BOTH, but usually there is a preference.

If he is happy to toddle off into the corner with a toy, what would he choose to take and what does he do when there?

He would take the tuggy, he lays down and quietly chews it to pieces!!!

If this sounds peculiar, I often find it useful to find how orally fixated dogs are on stuff;

Sometimes it does take a while to find the perfect toy, ie size, texture, taste etc

I trained one of my dogs to do anything for food, even play, the other I trained to take food instead of a toy when I required it;
I have tried various different toys of different textures, the only one ive ever been able to get him to play tug with is the one im using at the moment that is a thin plaited rope type thing.
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smokeybear
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23-04-2011, 10:50 AM
On all other parts of the course, after a jump sequence for example I would most likely throw the toy as he commits to the last jump so he drives on towards the toy. Or, maybe just after one jump and i ask him for an "in" towards me i would then play tug with him.

Ok, so if I go back to your first statement re the reason you do not want to use food

even the smallest amount of easily eaten food takes him a couple of minutes to eat

How long do you play tuggy with him for?

Surely the time it takes to eat the food is the same, more or less, as it would be to play tuggy or throw the ball?

When you gave/give him food how did you do so, from your pocket, treat bag or hand?

Why not have a small Klippit box ( I have several) in which food is placed so the dog does not have to look around for more?

In addition you can throw this as you would a ball to drive him on towards the box, and then join and feed?


If were talking training away from agility and im doing obedience training for exaple, then i usually do a number of exercises then release at random points into a game of tug

So is there any reason you cannot do this with food?

I did this with my dog and it worked well for her, and I have several clients who do this successfully too.
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Collie Convert
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23-04-2011, 11:02 AM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
On all other parts of the course, after a jump sequence for example I would most likely throw the toy as he commits to the last jump so he drives on towards the toy. Or, maybe just after one jump and i ask him for an "in" towards me i would then play tug with him.

Ok, so if I go back to your first statement re the reason you do not want to use food

even the smallest amount of easily eaten food takes him a couple of minutes to eat

How long do you play tuggy with him for?

Surely the time it takes to eat the food is the same, more or less, as it would be to play tuggy or throw the ball?

When you gave/give him food how did you do so, from your pocket, treat bag or hand?

Why not have a small Klippit box ( I have several) in which food is placed so the dog does not have to look around for more?

In addition you can throw this as you would a ball to drive him on towards the box, and then join and feed?


If were talking training away from agility and im doing obedience training for exaple, then i usually do a number of exercises then release at random points into a game of tug

So is there any reason you cannot do this with food?

I did this with my dog and it worked well for her, and I have several clients who do this successfully too.
I play tuggy with him for a minute or two, my concern with the amount of tme for the food was mainly because he sniffs around for more and so switches off from the 'job' in hand, though a klippit box sounds like a good idea, i shall definately give it a go.
Thnak for the help, i shall let you know how we get on!!
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