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Gnasher
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13-03-2011, 08:45 PM
Without any wish at all to spark off another vicious, pointless and futile rant, as someone who has achieved a total success (so far) by using an e collar, I would like to tell the OP exactly what we have found with e collars.

We have a Dogtra, which is at the top end of the market quality-wise. It has a pager setting, which is just a pure vibration at one level, there is no high, medium or low setting. There is also a button called a "stim" which gives a split second pulse of static when the button is pressed. You can have a very low setting at 10, which rises to as high as 100. The stim setting does not give an electric shock, it causes a similar reaction to static electricity when you touch your car or a lift button and you get a sting. It isn't even that painful - having tried the collar on myself - I would compare it to using a Slendertone machine. The "stim" that you receive causes the muscles to involuntarily jerk, so the reason a dog reacts to a high level stim is because it is surprised by such a sensation without having any idea where it has come from. If you want to describe this as pain, then yes, it is painful, but I prefer to describe it as very uncomfortable because, as a dog, you of course have no idea why the muscles in your neck are suddenly jerking.

We first used an e collar on Ben about 2 weeks ago I suppose it must be now, maybe a bit longer. My husband has only ever had to use the stim twice on Ben, but over this weekend when we started exercising my daughter's chihuahua again with the big boys, we have had to use the pager on him a couple of times. Ben becomes distracted by the chihuahua, who is very disobedient, and OH had to rumble him a few times over the weekend to remind him to come back, which he has done.

He has completely stopped running off across the fields, and he has completely stopped running off onto the road. He is the same old Ben, still naughty, still a bit of a lout, but now he is obedient. And all for wearing a plastic collar which vibrates sometimes when he goes in to deaf mode.

I would not advocate their use for any non-serious situations. I know that some people use them for just ordinary training purposes, but I consider this unacceptable. They should only be used when ALL other methods have been tried, tested and failed, and should only be used for serious problems, such as running off or chasing livestock.

In just 2 or so short weeks, we have turned the dog around. He is still exactly the same old Ben, he is not traumatised, he is the same dog - just obedient now with a reasonable level of recall. Touch wood, as of course it is still early days.
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Gnasher
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13-03-2011, 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by JoedeeUK View Post
It bl**dy well hurts having had one used on me. I use a Tens Machine a lot on quite a high stim & that is nothing to compared to using an e collar around the neck on a dog. The nerves in the neck transmit the pain quicker than putting it around a human arm or leg.

I don't correct by tugging the lead & collar nor by handling/touching-voice & signal only

BTW I also have quite a high pain threshold as do many dogs, I walked half a mile on a broken ankle when I was a youngster !
I used a TENS machine after my accident, and for me, it was NOTHING like an e collar, there is no comparison. The TENS machine for me produced a trickling, prickling sensation, nothing like the muscular spasm caused by the e-collar.
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krlyr
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13-03-2011, 09:15 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
If you want to describe this as pain, then yes, it is painful, but I prefer to describe it as very uncomfortable because, as a dog, you of course have no idea why the muscles in your neck are suddenly jerking.
Hooray, finally. Btw, did you ever try it on your neck? Not that I would encourage it, not knowing the dangers, but I would be curious to know whether it felt different on the neck (as I explained, I get spasms in my neck which I find very painful - certainly wouldn't inflict them on my dogs)
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Gnasher
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13-03-2011, 09:26 PM
Originally Posted by krlyr View Post
Hooray, finally. Btw, did you ever try it on your neck? Not that I would encourage it, not knowing the dangers, but I would be curious to know whether it felt different on the neck (as I explained, I get spasms in my neck which I find very painful - certainly wouldn't inflict them on my dogs)
Yeah, so do I, radiating from where I broke my neck - T1 and T2. The spasms are horrible, aren't they, so I am very sympathetic. No, I have not tried the e collar on my neck, for the very simple reason having broken my neck, I have no idea what damage could be caused by a muscle spasm. I guess it would be OK as the contacts would rest on the throat, not the neck.

Just a question - if the e collar causes so much pain and distress to a dog, why does Ben allow myself or OH to put it round his neck without any worry whatsoever? Believe me, that dog will not let you do anything to him that he does not want done to him! The weekend before last, we bathed them both in the bath upstairs. We lifted Tai in, did him first to show Ben there was nothing to be afraid of, but there was no way he was going to allow us to lift him in. We would have had to muzzle him to do it safely, and we didn't want to do that, so we just rolled with the punches and washed him in the garden with buckets of warm water and the hose!

Ben is not stupid, he knows full well that the correction comes from the e collar, yet he allows me or OH to put it on him twice a day, and then take it off again. If it were that bad, he definitely would not allow it anywhere near him!
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Dobermann
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13-03-2011, 09:33 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Yeah, so do I, radiating from where I broke my neck - T1 and T2. The spasms are horrible, aren't they, so I am very sympathetic. No, I have not tried the e collar on my neck, for the very simple reason having broken my neck, I have no idea what damage could be caused by a muscle spasm. I guess it would be OK as the contacts would rest on the throat, not the neck.

Just a question - if the e collar causes so much pain and distress to a dog, why does Ben allow myself or OH to put it round his neck without any worry whatsoever? Believe me, that dog will not let you do anything to him that he does not want done to him! The weekend before last, we bathed them both in the bath upstairs. We lifted Tai in, did him first to show Ben there was nothing to be afraid of, but there was no way he was going to allow us to lift him in. We would have had to muzzle him to do it safely, and we didn't want to do that, so we just rolled with the punches and washed him in the garden with buckets of warm water and the hose!

Ben is not stupid, he knows full well that the correction comes from the e collar, yet he allows me or OH to put it on him twice a day, and then take it off again. If it were that bad, he definitely would not allow it anywhere near him!
Im assuming you dont shock the dog the second you put the collar on him - therefore he does not know that the shock omes from that collar any different from another.


Isnt that a bit like saying why didnt the child stop the mum smacking it? It cant be that sore then.....and they DO know where its coming from.
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rune
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13-03-2011, 09:35 PM
Once again proving that ignorance is king---or maybe queen!

rune
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Tassle
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13-03-2011, 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Yeah, so do I, radiating from where I broke my neck - T1 and T2. The spasms are horrible, aren't they, so I am very sympathetic. No, I have not tried the e collar on my neck, for the very simple reason having broken my neck, I have no idea what damage could be caused by a muscle spasm. I guess it would be OK as the contacts would rest on the throat, not the neck.

Just a question - if the e collar causes so much pain and distress to a dog, why does Ben allow myself or OH to put it round his neck without any worry whatsoever? Believe me, that dog will not let you do anything to him that he does not want done to him! The weekend before last, we bathed them both in the bath upstairs. We lifted Tai in, did him first to show Ben there was nothing to be afraid of, but there was no way he was going to allow us to lift him in. We would have had to muzzle him to do it safely, and we didn't want to do that, so we just rolled with the punches and washed him in the garden with buckets of warm water and the hose!

Ben is not stupid, he knows full well that the correction comes from the e collar, yet he allows me or OH to put it on him twice a day, and then take it off again. If it were that bad, he definitely would not allow it anywhere near him!
If your dog knows the shock came form the collar you defeat the whole object of using it!

You are meant to desensitise them to wearing it for a couple of weeks before and keep a 'dummy' collar on as well.....

The whole point is that the dog does not know the shock comes from the collar - otherwise you are tied to the collar for life....

Methinks you understand very little about what you are doing
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Azz
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13-03-2011, 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
We have a Dogtra, which is at the top end of the market quality-wise. It has a pager setting, which is just a pure vibration at one level, there is no high, medium or low setting. There is also a button called a "stim" which gives a split second pulse of static when the button is pressed. You can have a very low setting at 10, which rises to as high as 100. The stim setting does not give an electric shock, it causes a similar reaction to static electricity when you touch your car or a lift button and you get a sting. It isn't even that painful - having tried the collar on myself...
Please stop treating us like idiots Gnasher. Electric shocks hurt. Electric shock collars hurt - otherwise they would use vibration collars instead. If yours doesn't hurt then you either have a faulty collar or (and more likely) you haven't turned it up anywhere near the level you have shocked your dog.

Look at the video below - does it look like 'just a stim' to you?

Originally Posted by Tupacs2legs View Post
if it was only meant to be a 'tingle' it would not have settings that go so high...its meant to hurt!

A slight involuntary reflex action on a muscle (such as you describe) would probably not bother a dog in the slightest. How many dogs pull? Or pull with choker ropes on? They tug their neck muscles quite a lot - but that doesn't stop them in their tracks. Electric shock collars do though.

Many members are going to get (understandably) annoyed if you keep saying they don't hurt - when they unmistakeably, do.
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Gnasher
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13-03-2011, 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by Azz View Post
Please stop treating us like idiots Gnasher. Electric shocks hurt. Electric shock collars hurt - otherwise they would use vibration collars instead. If yours doesn't hurt then you either have a faulty collar or (and more likely) you haven't turned it up anywhere near the level you have shocked your dog.

Look at the video below - does it look like 'just a stim' to you?



A slight involuntary reflex action on a muscle (such as you describe) would probably not bother a dog in the slightest. How many dogs pull? Or pull with choker ropes on? They tug their neck muscles quite a lot - but that doesn't stop them in their tracks. Electric shock collars do though.

Many members are going to get (understandably) annoyed if you keep saying they don't hurt - when they unmistakeably, do.
We don't use an electric collar - we use a VIBRATION collar now. Haven't used the "stim" button for 2 weeks.

Must go to bed now nite all x
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DevilDogz
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13-03-2011, 10:10 PM
Of course it hurts, sadly its always just at the wrong end of the lead - with the wrong 'animal' wearing it!
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