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Jackie
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07-11-2010, 10:10 AM
Originally Posted by Krusewalker View Post
never heard that one before.

can you elaborate?
Originally Posted by rune View Post
Denis---on a u tube vid.
rune
Yep, thats him.

Funny its alwasy men , isn`t it who seem to lke these "tools "
SLB
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07-11-2010, 10:12 AM
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
Yep, thats him.

Funny its alwasy men , isn`t it who seem to lke these "tools "
I cant find it, but then again if I clicked on it it'd up his views and end up somewhere
Meg
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07-11-2010, 10:15 AM
This was one of the last big discussions about e collars..
http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=122533

In post 384 I ask what the person in the photograph was doing with the e collar (this is just a few of a series of photographs which used to be widely posted on internet sites by an e collar salesman)
...the reply from an e collar user ..see post 387

Minihaha
I love dogs, I don't believe loving dogs means you shouldn't use an effective/humane method to train just because it upsets some people.
The dobie in the pic is probably being trained to sit. Its a dobbs (but others use it of course) idea that the dog percieves the stim as pressure (e;g physical pressure) and much like horse handling will move away from that pressure. You can also put the e collar on top of the neck to teach down and on the side of the neck to teach the dog a closer heel ect.
Meg
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07-11-2010, 10:24 AM
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
Funny its alwasy men , isn`t it who seem to lke these "tools "
..It certainly seems to be mainly men who sell these things. One of the weired salesmen used to be a member here until he got banned. Some years ago he posted a link to his photobucket account so we could see photographs demonstrating his use of the collar. He clearly forget that all the content of his site became available to view . It contained some very odd photographs including various 'tools'. I couldn't help feeling a bit sorry for him really, he clearly had some 'issues' .
ClaireandDaisy
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07-11-2010, 11:03 AM
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
Funny its alwasy men , isn`t it who seem to lke these "tools "
I have a theory about this - lack of empathy is a largely male characteristic* (most men don`t have it to a noticeable degree before someone complains). Extreme lack of empathy can lead to all sorts of personality disorders.
You see - basically I couldn`t deliberately inflict pain on an animal because I know how it would hurt. So the idea of debating the ethics of hurting animals is a flawed concept from the beginning.
If you substitute Beating or Burning or Kicking for Shocking you`ll see what I mean.
e.g. If I only beat my dog a little it doesn`t hurt. err........

*http://heldref-publications.metapres...lts,1:119947,1
Delos
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07-11-2010, 11:58 AM
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
Yep, thats him.

Funny its alwasy men , isn`t it who seem to lke these "tools "

Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
I have a theory about this - lack of empathy is a largely male characteristic* (most men don`t have it to a noticeable degree before someone complains). Extreme lack of empathy can lead to all sorts of personality disorders.
As a man I take offense to that comment. I have seen plenty of women on both UK and US websites promoting the use of these barbaric devices. I really don't see how you can make such a judgmental statement like that. I judge people by their actions not their Sex. It's a bit like saying all women Nag men. Another silly statement.

People who use them ar normally those without the patience to do proper training and want the results immediately no matter the long term problems.
Tassle
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07-11-2010, 12:18 PM
Earlier in the year I went on a training course and it was the other way around...a couple of the women were advocating the use of them (with regards to stock chasing) and (at least) one man was quite anti.

TBH - the only reason I can see for using one is to promote the 'quick fix' for more business.

Many people with dogs with issues will look for an instant solution without looking at the ramifications. They do not seem to mind that the dog is reacting more from fear.
Its very sad and the sooner they are made illegal in this country the better.
Meg
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07-11-2010, 12:36 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
I have a theory about this - lack of empathy is a largely male characteristic* (most men don`t have it to a noticeable degree before someone complains). Extreme lack of empathy can lead to all sorts of personality disorders.
You see - basically I couldn`t deliberately inflict pain on an animal because I know how it would hurt. So the idea of debating the ethics of hurting animals is a flawed concept from the beginning.
If you substitute Beating or Burning or Kicking for Shocking you`ll see what I mean.
e.g. If I only beat my dog a little it doesn`t hurt. err........

*http://heldref-publications.metapress.com/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issue,4,9; journal,31,84;linkingpublicationresults,1:119947,1
Claire I think it is the other way around, personality disorders can result in a lack of empathy, I once attended a lecture given by a criminal psychologist where this was discussed. Some personality disorders which affect a person's ability to empathise appear to be associated more with men than women and this may create a false impression.
Originally Posted by Delos View Post
As a man I take offense to that comment. I have seen plenty of women on both UK and US websites promoting the use of these barbaric devices. I really don't see how you can make such a judgmental statement like that. I judge people by their actions not their Sex. It's a bit like saying all women Nag men. Another silly statement.

People who use them ar normally those without the patience to do proper training and want the results immediately no matter the long term problems.
Delos I have met many men who were empathetic including my father, husband and son all the kindest gentlest of men and I have met some women who had very little empathy.

We have had women advocating the use of ecollars on this site but the salesmen and main advocates for their use tend to be men.

I agree about the lack of patience and wanting a quick fix whatever the cost to the dog long term..
rune
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07-11-2010, 12:51 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
I have a theory about this - lack of empathy is a largely male characteristic* (most men don`t have it to a noticeable degree before someone complains). Extreme lack of empathy can lead to all sorts of personality disorders.
You see - basically I couldn`t deliberately inflict pain on an animal because I know how it would hurt. So the idea of debating the ethics of hurting animals is a flawed concept from the beginning.
If you substitute Beating or Burning or Kicking for Shocking you`ll see what I mean.
e.g. If I only beat my dog a little it doesn`t hurt. err........

*http://heldref-publications.metapres...lts,1:119947,1
There are degrees of empathy as well-----some people will choose only to empathise with their dog and not other animals, we have seen this often in other threads.

rune
ClaireandDaisy
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07-11-2010, 03:29 PM
Originally Posted by Delos View Post
As a man I take offense to that comment.
well I knew someone would.
I withdraw the comment. Obviously all the research is wrong and I don`t particualrly care because it`s a red herring anyway. And all men are wonderful human beings.


So- back to the topic - is it OK to debate hurting an animal? Because the e-collar debate always comes down to - it doesn`t hurt much / yes it does.
I find the whole idea revolting. If you admit the shock works because it hurts, then we are debating if we should train with pain. In one corner are the people who profit from the sale and use of these collars, and in the other corner are people who use better and kinder ways.
So we just trot out the usual research and Adam gets a free plug for his products again.
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