register for free
View our sister sites
Our sister sites
Our sister sites
Our sister sites
Lizzy23
Dogsey Veteran
Lizzy23 is offline  
Location: Wakefield England
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,697
Female 
 
30-07-2009, 03:42 PM

A Question for both sides of the CM Debate

I have been reading the dog whisperer thread with interest, haven't joined in because i don't really have a strong opinion either way. On the whole i train my dogs positively with the only negatives being a change of tone (not shouting and screaming) of voice, or if i ask them to stay and they don't i will put them back where they have moved from and repeat the exercise.

I believe it was clare and Daisy who somewhere at the beginning asked how you would train recall if you were in the CM camp.

So i have a question for both of you around that, i know how i have done it and its still a work in progress but how would the Ceasars way people and the positive only people deal with the situation i am about to describe.

Molly is an approximately 3 year old working springer who we picked up from a pound at around 8 months on her final day. We believe that she had been bought as a working dog and as happens to some they had done too much too soon, her recall was none existent. She is not toy orientated in fact won't pick anything up again we believe this is due to her being given a hiding for running in and picking things up when she wasn't supposed to, her one reward is to hunt and hunt and hunt and nothing can distract her from it, not laying on the floor waving your arms and legs in the air, and certainly nothing to eat, she is the most loving dog in the house, but put her anywhere off her lead and all she will do is follow her nose, and this includes boring fields as well as the woods, in fact she is worse in boring places than in the woods.

I have spent many hrs in fields with Moo on a long line practising recall, but you see Moll is clever and knows she is on a line and will come flying in everytime to sit nicely at my feet. i have also spent 100's on training again in a training situation even outside she is perfect.

So how would you all deal with this??
Reply With Quote
Krusewalker
Dogsey Veteran
Krusewalker is offline  
Location: dullsville
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,241
Male 
 
30-07-2009, 04:06 PM
Originally Posted by Lizzy23 View Post
Molly is an approximately 3 year old working springer who we picked up from a pound at around 8 months on her final day. We believe that she had been bought as a working dog and as happens to some they had done too much too soon, her recall was none existent. She is not toy orientated in fact won't pick anything up again we believe this is due to her being given a hiding for running in and picking things up when she wasn't supposed to, her one reward is to hunt and hunt and hunt and nothing can distract her from it, not laying on the floor waving your arms and legs in the air, and certainly nothing to eat, she is the most loving dog in the house, but put her anywhere off her lead and all she will do is follow her nose, and this includes boring fields as well as the woods, in fact she is worse in boring places than in the woods.

I have spent many hrs in fields with Moo on a long line practising recall, but you see Moll is clever and knows she is on a line and will come flying in everytime to sit nicely at my feet. i have also spent 100's on training again in a training situation even outside she is perfect.

So how would you all deal with this??
Firstly, i would say what evidence do you have to say she
was beaten just because she wont pick things up?
Have you toy trained her?
Tried training a retrieve?

I would find a good toy, and gradually get her used to playing with this indoors, making it a pleasure, but at her own pace.
Then this toy only comes out for recall exercises.

What type of long line are you using? Hopefully not a flexi, as this doesnt teach recall.

Next, you could use the scenting as the reward.
Get her to walk close to you on a on lead, send her out a very short way, call her in, then let her sniff.
then repeat several times, extending the distance on the line.
You could get her to sniff out treats or the pre-trained toy.

What treats have you tried and how have you used them?

Obvious question, have you been to a block of dog training classes to be instructed on recall?

Just a few quick points, which i havent fleshed out in a great deal at this stage, especially as more info is required.

BTW - i dont live in a camp, so I may not qualify to answer?
Reply With Quote
rune
Dogsey Veteran
rune is offline  
Location: cornwall uk
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,132
Female 
 
30-07-2009, 04:07 PM
Get a rabbit skin and wrap it round a toy, use it on a line so that it moves. Pair it with a superb food reward---maybe raw liver or something she really likes.

Leave the line on her but make sure it can't snag on anything. Gradually shorten the line.

rune
Reply With Quote
Sarah27
Dogsey Veteran
Sarah27 is offline  
Location: Somewhere
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,087
Female 
 
30-07-2009, 04:07 PM
If she is very 'nose' oriented, could you work with that and do tracking with her? i.e. she has to find you? I don't know the ins and outs of tracking, but maybe you could do something like this:

in your house let her sniff something really smelly, like a little tupperware box with some tuna in it. Then get someone to hold her while you go and hide somewhere in your house. When she finds you, give her a reward (maybe some of the tuna).

Once she is doing that, move onto doing the same exercise in the garden. Then move onto a large, outdoor secure area, like an enclosed field.

That's what I would try anyway, use her strengths and what she loves doing to your advantage.

I've never seen CM work on recall, but they have leash laws in America so I don't think it's that much of an issue.
Reply With Quote
JoedeeUK
Dogsey Veteran
JoedeeUK is offline  
Location: God's Own County
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 7,584
Female 
 
30-07-2009, 04:23 PM
Definitely train her to use her nose to find things/tracking etc. Start in the house, then the garden, then outside the home etc etc It's worth think about doing some informal WT training. Sheila Bailey holds Fun Nosework weekends in Derbyshire & you do have an excellent Dog Training Club in Wakefield that also has a WT section
Reply With Quote
Pidge
Dogsey Veteran
Pidge is offline  
Location: Wiltshire, UK
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,374
Female 
 
30-07-2009, 04:40 PM
But how is the nose/tracking going to help the recall? Just curious.

I was going to suggest the same as Krusewalker. I think she needs to have one thing that is the single most exciting thing to her (as you know Springers do Lizzy), then that can be used to teach her that it is OK to play, hold and come to it. Have you tried a Kong air ball? It's Woody's all time favourite. We call it Wilson and make him go and find it by saying ''where's Wilson, find it'' and off he goes, bringing it back in his mouth squeaking like a budgie.

It's a tough one though and will obviously take lots of patience. Good luck.
Reply With Quote
viktory
Dogsey Junior
viktory is offline  
Location: London, UK
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 36
Female 
 
30-07-2009, 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by Krusewalker View Post
What type of long line are you using? Hopefully not a flexi, as this doesnt teach recall.
Can you elucidate on this please?
Reply With Quote
Lizzy23
Dogsey Veteran
Lizzy23 is offline  
Location: Wakefield England
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,697
Female 
 
30-07-2009, 05:01 PM
Calm down just asking how you would do it, note i didn't say that she wasn't cured or at least livable with.


I don't have any evidence as such, just a suspicion due to body language when you ask her to retrieve, yes we have worked on it and the only thing she will pick up now after 2 years is a rabbit skin dummy, and then only once or twice.

Right answers she has been tried with any number of toys, in the house she will now play a liitle outside no chance its not half as exciting as hunting .

Treats that have been tried, include Liver, warm chicken, warm sausages and the usual biscuits, would take your hand off in the house but still not as exciting as hunting.

I was using a proper long line 60footer.

I went to one to lessons with a very respected Gundog trainer, who was 100% positive apart from the negatives i described above in fact travelled to cheshire on personal recomendations and he was very good, we went once a fortnight for best part of 5 months.

She doesn't stay close enough for tracking she likes to hunt to either side of you in pretty tight cover.

PS am not trying to start an argument just curious like i say to see how people who follow different ways of training would deal with a specific training problem in a specific breed, all in the interests of rational debate and inforamtion for anyone reading
Reply With Quote
Krusewalker
Dogsey Veteran
Krusewalker is offline  
Location: dullsville
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,241
Male 
 
30-07-2009, 05:21 PM
Sorry, i should have elaborated...like i said, i had only really thrown my post together.

Its a matter of risk assessment and training success.

The problems with flexis is the amount and manner of control you have.

Firstly, you dont have first direct control of the device, you have second direct control.
First direct control in terms of stopping movement is the button you must press, and first direct control in terms of momentum is the pulley system, somewhat determined by the free running dog, so you could argue you have third direct control there.

Therefore, secondly, you need razor sharp reflexes in any given situation whatsoever.

So, if your dog sees that squirrel way before you = pretty much likely - he could be at the end of that line in a flash, before you have already thinking of reacting.
Thus you will likely be 'panic reacting', increasing likelihood of not hitting that button quick enough, or pressing it wrong, jarring it.
The risk here is dog gets to end of the line in quick sharp time and jolts his neck...not too mention the accident you may sustain, such as the handle bouncing back and whacking you on the forehead.

This could cause your dog to become nervous, setting back your recall training.

Aside from this, the constant pulling in and out of the cable, as determined by the dog, is teaching the dog to pull, another potential training problem..

Whereas, if you use a long line, such as a horse lunge or lightweight rope, you eliminate these issues, as their is no button and pulley, you are just holding the actual line, so you have first and only direct control of movement and momentum.

You get to feed,. lengthen, and shorten the line accordingly. You can also trail some of the line.
You can even, when things have advanced enough, drop the long line and trail on the ground.

However, long lines also have their H & S risks, such as entangling yourself, your dog, or others (which a flexi cable can also do), and you can get rope burn.

That it why it is essential to practice feeding the line in your garden to begin with, and to wear gloves until happy.

So - flexis - generally not a good tool for training purposes.
Reply With Quote
cava14una
Dogsey Veteran
cava14una is offline  
Location: Fife Scotland
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,946
Female 
 
30-07-2009, 05:42 PM
One of my Boxers took a while to recall. I used the long line and gradually shortened it over time. I think that helped my confidence which made me less anxious.
Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 1 of 25 1 2 3 4 11 > Last »


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools


© Copyright 2016, Dogsey   Contact Us - Dogsey - Top Contact us | Archive | Privacy | Terms of use | Top