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Wysiwyg
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11-06-2007, 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by GSDLover View Post
Boo Hisss. Ban this man.
LOL
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Wysiwyg
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11-06-2007, 04:27 PM
Originally Posted by 5dog View Post
Totally agree, there is no place for shock collars, barbaric pieces of equipment.

Another possibilty of the coming up the lead scenario is when the Mal has been trained to do something it knows what it should be doing but the person holding the lead doesnt.
The stronger dog in frustration can drive its handler into releasing him, but again thats not a bad dog just a bad handler.

I have worked both GSDs and Mals, and my present dog is a Mal, at the risk of offending the GSD lovers of which I currently have two, I would have a good Mal over a great GSD anyday, although they are not suited for everyone.
Yes true about the other possibility you mention re. the breed: frustration. They don't tend to deal with that very well.

Out of interest, we have a police dog handler at the college where I do dog training, plus a couple into Schutzhund etc (the police dog handler has a young working Mal) and they use clicker training, also I've heard of, although not seen personally, Geert de Bolster from Europe who uses clicker for general training including the Out ... wondered if you'd come across others using it by any chance?

The police handler is very impressed. This is not his first dog, he's had at least one other for police work, but this is the first time he's used the clicker. Sorry slightly off topic but would be interested to know.

Wys
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5dog
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11-06-2007, 06:15 PM
Yes I have heard of some police dog handlers starting to use clicker training.
if it works then why not, as long as the dog is clear in its mind what its supposed to do then good effort.
Gone are the days with the long line attached to the dog and screaming leave at the top of your voice while trying to pull the dog off.

On the leave or out once the dog has left for the clicker what is the dog rewarded with , another bite or a toy
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Heldengebroed
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12-06-2007, 06:54 AM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
Geert de Bolster from Europe who uses clicker for general training including the Out ...

That guy isn't capable off handling a mal. I've seen him advocate reactions to agressive dogs that would get him in hospital within seconds. He got a wild card for a IPO world championship once and got realy low scores even a big fat 0 and yet he poses as the great trainer.

Greetings

Johan
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Wysiwyg
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12-06-2007, 03:58 PM
Originally Posted by 5dog View Post
Yes I have heard of some police dog handlers starting to use clicker training.
if it works then why not, as long as the dog is clear in its mind what its supposed to do then good effort.
Gone are the days with the long line attached to the dog and screaming leave at the top of your voice while trying to pull the dog off.
Certainly hope so

On the leave or out once the dog has left for the clicker what is the dog rewarded with , another bite or a toy
The sleeve, so another bite or else being allowed to win the sleeve and run off the field with it
Withholding the sleeve is used as the ultimate "punishment" which of course the clicker trained dog understands :smt001

The dog is clicked by the handler and the helper, one for the control and one for the biting, that's about as much as I know.

Wys
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Wysiwyg
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12-06-2007, 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by Heldengebroed View Post
That guy isn't capable off handling a mal. I've seen him advocate reactions to agressive dogs that would get him in hospital within seconds. He got a wild card for a IPO world championship once and got realy low scores even a big fat 0 and yet he poses as the great trainer.

Greetings

Johan
You don't rate him then

In the article I was reading, he is helping to train a variety of dogs including at least 2 working bred (clicker trained) Malinois One of my acquaintances is so thrilled with his teaching that she's planning to go to Belgium and work with him there. This is a WTs serious competitor who has got into the KCCs before now so is not a beginner by any means, quite the opposite.

I don't think it's fair to say he poses as the great trainer Johan surely - I've got his dvd on aggressive dogs which shows him working patiently for hours with aggressive dogs and their owners. He does a lot of visits at Learning about Dogs centre and is always considered excellent, otherwise he wouldn't be invited back
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5dog
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12-06-2007, 04:19 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
Certainly hope so



The sleeve, so another bite or else being allowed to win the sleeve and run off the field with it
Withholding the sleeve is used as the ultimate "punishment" which of course the clicker trained dog understands :smt001

The dog is clicked by the handler and the helper, one for the control and one for the biting, that's about as much as I know.

Wys
x
We do it much the same way the dog comes off because he knows that he gets a rea bite and a fight/play.
if he doesnt come off then the decoy remains still and the dog gets no fun as soon as he releases rea bite and a fight, again. the dog soon learns to come off on command to get its reward. It also takes the dogs desire to be possessive with the sleeve away, as he only gets the enjoyment from it when hes ragging with the decoy.
This method has worked on a few problem dogs we have had who have been monsters with possessive problems
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Heldengebroed
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12-06-2007, 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
You don't rate him then

In the article I was reading, he is helping to train a variety of dogs including at least 2 working bred (clicker trained) Malinois One of my acquaintances is so thrilled with his teaching that she's planning to go to Belgium and work with him there. This is a WTs serious competitor who has got into the KCCs before now so is not a beginner by any means, quite the opposite.

I don't think it's fair to say he poses as the great trainer Johan surely - I've got his dvd on aggressive dogs which shows him working patiently for hours with aggressive dogs and their owners. He does a lot of visits at Learning about Dogs centre and is always considered excellent, otherwise he wouldn't be invited back
I don't say he isn't capable of training a dog. I'm not saying he hasn't patience. But i'm saying that he promotes at least one technique that is dangerous if done with a real dominant dog. With 99% of the dogs it may or may not work but with that one % it means hospital. One other thing he gives courses on tracking. In the worldchampionship where he got a green card for his score on that part was 0. I have to admid that he is good in commercial departement.

Greetings

Johan
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Wysiwyg
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13-06-2007, 07:22 AM
Originally Posted by Heldengebroed View Post
I don't say he isn't capable of training a dog. I'm not saying he hasn't patience. But i'm saying that he promotes at least one technique that is dangerous if done with a real dominant dog. With 99% of the dogs it may or may not work but with that one % it means hospital. One other thing he gives courses on tracking. In the worldchampionship where he got a green card for his score on that part was 0. I have to admid that he is good in commercial departement.

Greetings

Johan

Hi Johan,

I guess though Geert may not see things as you (or perhaps many in the sport do) because I would imagine he doesn't follow the theory of dominance (as in humans must be alpha etc). One place the theory sticks seems to be in the ringsports/ military but even there things seem to be changing very slowly, at least in the Uk

So although I have no idea what he suggested, perhaps his reading of the dog, experience, education or whatever simply suggested a different way ... it's hard for me to comment as I have no idea what the situation was.

Out of interest what did he suggest? :smt001

Re the low score in world championships - I'd have thought one has to be pretty good to even get into the world championships

Wys
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Wysiwyg
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13-06-2007, 07:23 AM
Originally Posted by 5dog View Post
This method has worked on a few problem dogs we have had who have been monsters with possessive problems
Excellent! love to hear of this kind of training!
Understanding how the dog thinks and working with much wanted rewards can put the handler in control beautifully.

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