I found with my dog when he came out the river and wanted to shake (which he did and almost dropped the dummie) I just got him to sit - he can't shake and sit at the same time. BUT he already knows and does present the dummie nicely anyway so it was not a big step to ask him to sit rather than shake.

Can't I do it backwards - I'm sure I'd get better results with water retrieves before I do with land.

Well you have far more variables with water that you do not have to consider on land.

So you have ALL the issues you have on land, plus water, plus, shaking.

I expect he has more enthusiasm for water than land because of the way you have trained the retrieve, plus being the mix of breeds he is he loves the water.

You have an EXCELLENT trainer who can teach you how to train your dog to retrieve ANYTHING ANYWHERE living near you in Rod Roberts, however, to be frank, I am not sure you would get on.............

The thing to remember in dog training is that you do not have to sleep with your dog trainer, or agree with everything they say, you are there to suck him or her dry of knowledge to your advantage.

So if you can just adopt the attitude of "I am going to use this person until I need him/her no more" and not get drawin into an "emotional relationship" it might benefit you?


http://www.rodroberts.co.uk/index.html

He lives around the corner from Newstead Abbey so very near you I think.

Louie does manage to run to me - and quite often past me - then shake - I suppose WHEN I get to the water retrieves I could try and stop him before he runs past me - in fact why did I not do that in the first place. I never had this trouble with Sadie - ball = fetch = to person's hand. And she was taught whilst waiting for her to go to the toilet as a pup.

Why am I finding Louie much harder than the several other dogs I have taught to fetch?

I'd rather have that emotional relationship though - it makes it easier for me to learn and if it's easy for me - it's easy to Louie. I'll have a look at his site though and maybe email him.

Thank you.

So if your dog runs PAST you, you have still not got the BASICS right have you?

If you train from the END as in my article, your dog will NEVER tun past you as it has been CONDITIONED to end up where you started at the END! ROFLMAO

The reason you are having trouble with THIS dog is because if you thought about it you never really TRAINED the other dog, it just did it.

This is what I run across MANY MANY times especially with gundog owners; some of them have NEVER actually TRAINED a dog to retrieve because the material they were working with was genetically programmed to do it.

Many gundog trainers will "bin" a dog instead of training it, saying it does not have enough (insert relevant word) for them. When what they REALLY mean is that they do not have the skills, knowledge, ability, training and experience to train a dog to retrieve at all!

I know that is not very good for your ego, but you can't have an ego when training animals!

Your quite mean sometimes

I have contacted Rod Roberts - explained my situation and now am in waiting, but the next workshop he has is in Slingsby which is no where near me.

I understand the frustration - but the basics are always going to be your foundations.

I have spent a while teaching a nice hold - it is something I like to do with my guys (not for any specific purpose, but it is a simple exercise to work on on dark evenings or with little space)

I back chain my guys. Siren has a very gentle mouth and Zeff is learning, I know he is a different dog, but it has taken me about 3 months to get to this point with him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eXbZH0irpI
(Tis not perfect I know!)

However - i can do the touch/takes and he will hold different materials (including food items) without marking them now.

The basics can sometimes seem very tedious - but honestly (and I have tried skipping over them) - it takes a darn site longer if you do not have them right!!

as opposed to having one when giving advice?

same old same old: +R learning theory applied to the 4 legged end of the lead but not to the 2 legged end....

....the usual bane of the modern trainer.

im forever astounded how many of the post woodhousian brigade...real and cyber life....share the same characteristics with her when it comes to people.

very odd how the 'post APDT O.C.' movement never really took this on board. ....basic human psychology really

I know I know, I'm someone who makes things difficult than they actually are so small steps for me = bigger successes - it's why I failed maths - my teacher didn't explain it simple enough for me. I have invested in some new treats - he has cheese squares - tiny ones, cheesy bites by pedigree, some lamb and chicken things - they reek! there's the normal dog biscuits, smacho's in little bits, some fishy treats and I'm doing some hot dogs for him too - I've had to hang my treat bag really high because they're all interested in it!

He does pick things up rather quickly - I guess I get sloppy by not going over them as much as I should - Like Sadie's "leave".

Back to basic's I shall go.

I would like to be trained to train my dog the same way I am training him. Our school picked up the reward based theory - it went against the healthy schools bit though. We got a sweet if we answered a question right - forcing us to think about it.. So you've hit it on the head there KW.