you. just rep pointed you as well

SB - a few photos I took today of his retrieves:
http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=146259

I think he likes the water retrieves better - I do too with this warm weather.. Plus it gives me the chance to see him retrieving and ignoring ducks on the same water - fair enough it's a few coots but if he was busy he'd had had them long ago.

BUT, you are AGAIN trying to run before you can walk!

You are expecting the dog to do what is essentially a blind retrieve before you have the BASICS ie SEEN retrieve rock solid!

So, have you got the hand touch rock solid, proofed and generalised yet?

If not, you cannot expect the dog to reliably present the dummy that way!

Ahhh - I read the whole article. I don't throw the dummy as a reward - god knows what I was thinking when I wrote that - he gets food and a click.

I was told to start at the finish - as your article suggests also but I can't seem to get the hold for longer than a few seconds.

Aww thank you - My first one *does a little dance* - nah I'm joking

He will touch my hand on command. But how will I get him to associate that with the dummy touching my hand?

I'm not deliberately trying to be difficult, I'm just confused?

I was told to start at the finish - as your article suggests also but I can't seem to get the hold for longer than a few seconds

Then you really should not be doing what you are doing now as it will all fall apart..............

You need to work on the duration aspect so, using the clicker increase the time in TINY increments (I have to say tiny to you as you want to rush) and VARY it, eg click after one second, then 2, then 3 and so on up to say 10 and then click for 1 second again, so you keep the dog guessing.

MOST people make the mistake of just making exercised LONGER and LONGER and HARDER and HARDER so the dog feels under pressure and that it can never win.

He will touch my hand on command. But how will I get him to associate that with the dummy touching my hand?
I'm not deliberately trying to be difficult, I'm just confused?

Okay, the outstretched hand is the signal for your dog to stuff its nose into your palm yes?

So, ONCE you have done the OTHER bits, the dog RECOGNISES the oustretched flat hand as the cue to stuff its nose into your palm, and will do it when it has something in its gob!

Ahhh - now it's easy to understand. So he's not holding long because I've taught him otherwise?

So how will I untrain that.. I can't punish him for not holding it longer but I can't reward him for not holding it the length I want either...

Yes - I get it now, why am I so thick - this is easy, to understand that is.. so if I work on his touch - then when I get him to do a few seen retrieves - I hold my hand out and he should shove his nose and the dummy into my hand right?

Dilemma - what if he drops the dummy then touches my hand - do I remove my hand as soon as he drops it?

You have lost me altogether now, why would you want to punish your dog?

Same process as before, you shape the duration of the hold, by withholding a click.

The dog holds it for a second, click, dog drops article, you throw food.

The dog comes back, holds it for two seond, you click, dog drops article, you throw food.

If it drops the dummy too soon, just say nothing and look at the dummy, if he picks it up click, dog drops dummy, you throw food.

The dog, IF it is correctly clicker trained will keep trying to figure out what you want. So it will be begin to hold it for longer and longer. It should only let go after you have clicked; if it does not, then you need to go back a few steps as you have missed something out.