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vansansboxers
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05-12-2006, 04:15 PM

"Resource guarding" issues (updated 17 Jan)

Hello all,
as you know I am new to this group and thought maybe someone out there could help me, In all of our years of breeding boxers we have never come up against this one.We are a small show home, we breed only healthy(Tested) dogs to the breed standard as we can get,we sell our pet puppies with a limited registration and a must spay/neuter contract to approved homes.We have taken back 2 adult dogs different times back due to abuse, Now I recieved an e-mail(no Phone call) about a 13 week old male puppy whom went to his new home in NY. at 8 weeks old, to a family with a boy & girl(About 10 & any way she e-maild me and said the puppy is having "Resource guarding" issues,(Biting,snapping when he is around food, when "corrected" ect.)When he left here he showed no signs of any kind of agression,even when we did his temprament test on him,They will be bringing him back Friday to us on my insistance, I have never had any pup with this problem. They took him to a trainer who said he has a dominance problem and to get rid of him now,because the problem is only going to get worse," this is with only 1 hour with the "Trainer" I am going to call this trainer later today,to me it just dosnt add up.
since i have never had this problem or had to deal with a Trainer what are some things i should ask? any body who can help Please
Sandy
VanSan's Boxers
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Roxy
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06-12-2006, 10:55 AM
*just thought Id bump this up to see if anyone can help*
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Hali
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06-12-2006, 11:45 AM
I am afraid that I can't give you any advice - I am not a trainer or behaviourist but IMO I think your own feelings are probably right.

There may be reasons why this trainer has said this - possibly having seen the way the family behave with the dog, he realises that they are the cause and is actually suggesting giving him back for the dogs own benefit? (though as you say, an hour does seem very short period of time)

might be worth asking him what behavoir the trainer witnessed himself (and if different) what he has only found out from what the family have told him.

Otherwise (and again, only my own non-professional opinion) I wouldn't worry too much about what that trainer has said, but would wait to see what the pup was like yourself and if need be, arrange to see a dog behaviorist of your choice to see what they have to say.
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MazY
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06-12-2006, 11:48 AM
Even if there is a resource guarding issue, I'm staggered to see that any trainer would suggest a "get rid" policy instead of training when the dog is at such a very young age, and still widely open to learning the correct behaviour patterns.

Add to that, the fact that resource guarding really does have to be one of the easiest things to resolve (especially, again, when the dog is so so young), it's all the more perplexing.

I would be asking:

1 - How he reached the "dominance" conclusion in a dog that is so young.

2 - What behaviours he witnessed in order to reach that conclusion.

3 - Given the extremely young age of the dog, why he/she wouldn't first at least try one of the many different ways of tackling resource guarding.

4 - Why must it get worse? With the right training, it can ONLY get better, surely?

5 - What qualifications does he have to make such a sweeping and categoric statement. I don't know about the US, but I can set myself up as a trainer tomorrow, with no qualifications required whatsoever.

I presume his answer to most would be "experience". Fine, but you also have experience of your breed, and your past dogs. In that context, the trainer's experience is no more or less valid than yours.

Lastly, I would have thought this was a "behaviourist" issue, not a "trainer" issue, in the first place. A behaviourist would be the one to "analyse" the dog and see why it's doing what it's doing. A trainer, in my view at least, isn't really the ideal port of call for this sort of issue.

In my view, the behaviourist would come along and say "Your pup is doing this because..... and you need to walk him away from the bowl at feeding time, feed him from the hand, make sure he gets plenty of exercise, etc. etc." The trainer would then come along and teach you how to correctly handle the dog to walk him away from the bowl, teach recall so that you can exercise the pup and have him come back. Poor analogies I concede, but the point shouldn't be lost.

Something about this case really doesn't seem right to me. Guarding issues it may have, but to suggest they can't be resolved in a dog so incredibly young seems ludicrous!
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Trouble
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06-12-2006, 11:49 AM
This has me a bit baffled to be honest, I think a different trainer/behaviourist is required because at 13 weeks to dismiss the issue as unresolvable is nonsense. You need to see the problem for yourself and draw your own conclusions, but at 13 weeks anything should be possible.
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Meg
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06-12-2006, 12:25 PM
Hello Sandy you sound like an excellent and caring breeder. I haven't seen the dog you speak of and I am not a behaviourist, so I approach this post with caution for a number of reasons. I have been around dogs a long time and will make a few comments to try to help if I may ..

Firstly, any perceived new aggression (I did not say actual) should be checked with the vet to see if the puppy is unwell in any way

Originally Posted by vansansboxers View Post
We are a small show home, we breed only healthy(Tested) dogs to the breed standard as we can get,we sell our pet puppies with a limited registration and a must spay/neuter contract to approved homes.We have taken back 2 adult dogs different times back due to abuse, Now I recieved an e-mail(no Phone call) about a 13 week old male puppy whom went to his new home in NY. at 8 weeks old, to a family with a boy & girl(About 10 & any way she e-maild me and said the puppy is having "Resource guarding" issues,(Biting,snapping when he is around food, when "corrected" ect.)

I note they have children, perhaps they have teased/intimidated the puppy when it is trying to eat. A puppy should have its food put down and be left to eat in peace.
What does corrected mean. Removing the food, smacking the puppy? Believe me if you messed around or removed my food when I was eating my dinner I could well snap ..


When he left here he showed no signs of any kind of agression,even when we did his temprament test on him,They will be bringing him back Friday to us on my insistance, I have never had any pup with this problem. They took him to a trainer who said he has a dominance problem and to get rid of him now,because the problem is only going to get worse," this is with only 1 hour with the "Trainer" I am going to call this trainer later today,to me it just dosnt add up.

I don't go along with the 'Dominance thing' and would not trust this trainer or his advice. since i have never had this problem or had to deal with a Trainer what are some things i should ask? any body who can help Please
Sandy
VanSan's Boxers
So what would I do ? I would be inclined to remove the puppy anyway, the fact that there is reason for doubt means something is wrong somewhere.
I would get it home, check its health and if all was well start training it to be ok around food by putting the food bowl down and giving only a tiny amount of food at a time then gradually adding more till the puppy has had its whole meal allowance. Also giving the puppy a biscuit then offering a 'higher value' treat like a small piece of chicken and getting it to swap the biscuit for this
It would also be a good idea to teach this puppy bite inhibition so it will learn never to bite hard on human skin..
http://www.canineconcepts.co.uk/ccp5...hibition.shtml

If you think this puppy really does have a problem (mainly due to the previous owner) I would seek out a good behaviourist or trainer who follows the path of your own Dr Ian Dunbar and doesn't believe in dominance in 13 week old puppies .

Edited to add if you are looking for a trainer this is a good place to start, the APDT was founded by Ian Dunbar
http://www.apdt.com/about/mission.aspx
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Shona
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06-12-2006, 12:42 PM
Originally Posted by GSDLover View Post
Even if there is a resource guarding issue, I'm staggered to see that any trainer would suggest a "get rid" policy instead of training when the dog is at such a very young age, and still widely open to learning the correct behaviour patterns.

Add to that, the fact that resource guarding really does have to be one of the easiest things to resolve (especially, again, when the dog is so so young), it's all the more perplexing.

I would be asking:

1 - How he reached the "dominance" conclusion in a dog that is so young.


2 - What behaviours he witnessed in order to reach that conclusion.

3 - Given the extremely young age of the dog, why he/she wouldn't first at least try one of the many different ways of tackling resource guarding.

4 - Why must it get worse? With the right training, it can ONLY get better, surely?

5 - What qualifications does he have to make such a sweeping and categoric statement. I don't know about the US, but I can set myself up as a trainer tomorrow, with no qualifications required whatsoever.

I presume his answer to most would be "experience". Fine, but you also have experience of your breed, and your past dogs. In that context, the trainer's experience is no more or less valid than yours.

Lastly, I would have thought this was a "behaviourist" issue, not a "trainer" issue, in the first place. A behaviourist would be the one to "analyse" the dog and see why it's doing what it's doing. A trainer, in my view at least, isn't really the ideal port of call for this sort of issue.

In my view, the behaviourist would come along and say "Your pup is doing this because..... and you need to walk him away from the bowl at feeding time, feed him from the hand, make sure he gets plenty of exercise, etc. etc." The trainer would then come along and teach you how to correctly handle the dog to walk him away from the bowl, teach recall so that you can exercise the pup and have him come back. Poor analogies I concede, but the point shouldn't be lost.

Something about this case really doesn't seem right to me. Guarding issues it may have, but to suggest they can't be resolved in a dog so incredibly young seems ludicrous!
I second this, 13 weeks old! dont believe the problem is with the dog it has to be the way he is being reared, I have seen narky pups, caused by children constantly lunging and grabbing at them when they lift something, eg the childs shoe, pen, so on and rather than train the dog to let go when told they chase it round and grab at it, often hurting the pup or frightening it, and it can go one way or the other, fear or fight back, I have two dogs which I am working with that suffer child handling, one a CS is on the verge of nipping them the other a LabDoo has learned Im bigger I will let the little person hold on to my hair/collar and drag him around untill he crow-bars what I have form my mouth, he sees it as a great game doh, kids and dogs are hard there have to be rules, parents should not allow kids to see it as a toy, its a nightmare, and often they refuse to believe that there little angel child is the cause of the problem its far better to blame the poor dog,
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Shona
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06-12-2006, 12:49 PM
Is it poss to get them to take a short video and email it to you then you can see the problem first hand? its so hard to say what it could be without seeing it, also as Minihaha has said it really should be seen by a vet there could be a problem.
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Kicks
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06-12-2006, 01:48 PM
it sounds to me like they've got a pup and decided against it now. sorry but thats just my honest opinion, otherwise surely the breeder would have been the first port of call at that age not a "trainer"/ just my thoughts
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vansansboxers
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06-12-2006, 02:48 PM
Many Thanks to all!
They are bringing the pup home Friday,He will be going to the vets for a full check up (That was the first thing I did when I found out he was coming home) the I figure give him a day or two to readjust to our home and other dogs, then start and see if any of this "resource guarding" snapping and biting starts . I have grandchildren and great neices and nephews who are 5 and under who play and interact with the pups and the adults,but never left unattended alone with them,When I sold them this puppy,after a through check on them,I told them Never,Never leave children and the puppy alone,Things can and do happen when you are not there,so when you are not able to supervise the time the kids and puppy are together put the puppy in his crate,and teach the kids to leave him alone not to tease or touch it while he is in there, But as I have said time after time I am not there and there is more to this story that will never be known,Vance and I will side with the puppy,he knows what happened to him and he cant tell us .I have always said "There are No bad dogs just bad owners."What has struck me funny( Just a pun) is they had put to sleep an older rescue lab I think due to this resource guarding, when the first child was born.
any way he is coming home and we will try to find out about this "Problem" and place him in a Forever home. He really is a very nice puppy,when he left here he could have went into the show ring he was that nice looking and marked. But I wanted him to go to a forver pet home with people who loved him.
agin thanks and I'll keep you informed
Sandy
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Breeding for Quaility, Not Quanity
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