"Srop, How to stop predatory chasing in dogs" By David Ryan

Now I have read it and understand it, I thought I would share what I have learnt from it - helping you also. Some will be in quote marks as it will be from the book - I can't exactly put into words somethings like DR does.

So here goes:

Chasing = internal reinforcement = dopamine. Dogs are less likely going to stop chasing whatever they chase for a biscuit - DR's explanation is that he wouldn't be stopped from scoring the world cup winning goal for a biscuit - something that gives the dogs pleasure is less likely to be stopped by a low value treat.

Dogs inherit motor skills and patterns from Mothers and fathers - working stock dogs - more inheritance...

External reinforcement = it was cute as a puppy but a problem now. (My problem with Louie - was going to get him into field trials etc - but he has the problem of being deaf and not stopping working and chasing the birds etc - wouldn't be allowed on the shoot)

Dogs learn that Chasing is good, coming back normally equals punishment, back on leash, told off etc - humans equal punishment = coming back = telling off, so carry on chasing. If that makes sense..

Step One

Take away the ability to chase and everything else relating to the chase stimulus - sound, sight, smell etc (Hard with birds)

Step Two

Balance emotions - taking away a stimulus that causes high levels of dopamine etc, can cause anxiety and other withdrawal symptoms. Taking the dogs to the beach or swimming - or something fun to release dopamine will balance the dog out.

Occasional reinforcement = resistance to extinction - less likely to achieve original goal of stopping chasing.

Step Three

Nothing in life is free - for a dog to get attention from you - you have to control it. You have to control the food, the playtime, toys and anything else of value. The dog has to give eye contact.

Step Four

Train, retrain and practice retrieve to hand. Find a new toy that represents the target the dog used to chase (or still does) has to act like the target - EG: Birds = Frisbee
The new toy belongs to you - the dog doesn't play with it unless you want to play with it.

Introduce predictive command "Playtime" - then new toy is played with.

Step Five

By now you should have

From the dogs point of view

Try a sit-stay throw a lower value toy over dogs head until it stops - becomes dead. Command dog to retrieve it then throw high value toy past them with the predictive command - if the dog goes for the live toy over the dead toy - you're getting somewhere.

Step Six

Making the problem aversive. I got this mixed up last week - I muddled two sentences together.
Instead of using a shock collar or harsh methods, you need to teach the dog that the thing it used to chase is disgusting.

You need someone, not likely to come across your dog often - possible a work colleague to hold a cotton wool ball soaked in lemon juice in the front of your dogs mouth for a few minutes - the memory of the juice and smell and taste will provoke a disgust, you cannot be around the dog when the disgust is being planted.

With a citronella collar, when the dog chases the original stimulus - one spray then the predictive command and the toy thrown the other way - it could take one time or a few times in different places - timing is essential.

Citronella = lesser of two evils. According to DR - and I have to agree, better than a few volts through the dogs neck, or a week in the vets mending any breakages caused by a car hitting them or a shotgun fire etc.

These are just my notes - they may not be understandable but I thought I would repeat to you what I have learn't and if I have gotten something wrong and any of you have read the book - then I can be put right and understand better.

The book title is in the title if any of you would like to buy it and read through it if you are having the same problem/s

Sounds good but....
I`ll stick with basic training. All dogs have a prey drive. It`s a survival trait. It`s how you shape natural behaviour that makes the difference.
It all seems a bit drastic. I just don`t believ you`re going to lose the chase instinct. You can`t. Would it not be better to train an alternative behaviour - the same as people with gundogs and collies have done for thousands of years?
After all - a gundog`s drive is to eat the pheasant, and the collie`s to eat the sheep. I doubt very much if these unwanted behaviours are averted with a lemon.

I can see your point and I do agree.

But he is a retired police dog handler so I do see how it could work - at the moment I am still on Step one - I am now chasing the birds out of the garden before I let the dogs out in a morning - it's cold in a dressing gown and a night dress at 7am in the morning

I am working on his leave it and recall - so I am trying - I don't mind him chasing them - it's just he doesn't know when to stop - so I bought the book after being referred it, just to give me some ideas - The notes are just what I've learn't and I thought I would share - it's new knowledge that I can use to my advantage in training

Must admit I don't mind mine chasing squirrels. Think they need a bit of "fun" so to speak and I know they are never going to catch one! Don't want a boring regimented robot dog though I am careful where I let Parker off-lead so the woods we walk on I will leash him when we are walking on the bit near the main road in case a squirrel popped its head up so to speak.

Agree could be a problem if you have a dog that wants to chase livestock but then you should keep your dog on a lead near livestock anyway.

When I first got Parker I didn't realise what a high prey drive he had as we let them both off lead on fields where there was no livestock and no roads nearby at all. Parker took off after a flock of geese and jumped 3 electric fences and was a tiny dot in the distance! Eek-good job the geese came back or we would have been out looking for him still!!

He now will recall if chasing rabbits and has recalled straightaway twice when a cat suddenly appeared on the field but I know he wouldn't stop chasing squirrels and he has a strong desire to chase the cats he sees in gardens around our neighbourhood. That is part of him though and you have to accept that some dogs will want to chase things and change what you can so the dog can have an appropraite level of freedom, ie Parker fine off-lead on parks and heaths, woods etc but not in a deer-park or on the pavements near our home.

Would it not be better to train an alternative behaviour - the same as people with gundogs and collies have done for thousands of years?

But that is exactly what David Ryan says in his book, he redirects the prey drive onto a ball. As per SLBs post:

Find a new toy that represents the target the dog used to chase (or still does) has to act like the target - EG: Birds = Frisbee

Must admit I don't mind mine chasing squirrels. Think they need a bit of "fun" so to speak and I know they are never going to catch one!

Unfortunately we understand that dogs are obedient to the laws of learning, so if a dog is allowed to chase one species he will often redirect chasing onto another and each rehearsal improves his technique.

This predatory drift can start to include things like small dogs.................... so what may be ok for THIS dog, may be very very dangerous for OTHER dogs.

Find a new toy that represents the target the dog used to chase (or still does) has to act like the target - EG: Birds = Frisbee

I'm not sure this one is an option, unless he has any ideas what I replace a car with!

Hang on I'm sure he does mention something about cars *goes through book*

Not sure what you would do for a car - the toy ones the kids have? He can't really play with that on a busy street though..

I'm not sure I like the idea of making the object of a chase "disgusting". I guess it depends on what you want from your dog but I want Flynn to hunt for things so to make them disgusting would put him off searching for them. If you dont want your dog hunting then I see the logic.

How did you get Flynn to not chase waterfowl? I don't want him to try it with a swan or a goose. I know I need him to get a good recall and I am going over it loads with him.

I think DR meant make the chosen chase stimulus disgusting - so for Louie if he sees a bird it disgusts him so he doesn't want to chase it. I don't mind squirrels and to some extent rabbits. Because they're usually in the heart of woodlands - well around here anyway.

YEs it is a bit like scolding a pup for picking up your bra which could ruin its retrieve (in a sensitive breed/individual).

I have to say I do not agree with this disgusting approach neither do I think it is advisable in many dogs, however to be fair to him he is aiming this at probably pet dog owners who will not have a need for a dog to chase something else.

I also do not think it actually works in some cases, so like any book/method/trainer you have to work out what you want and pick what you want and leave what you do not.