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Tass
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18-11-2010, 10:41 PM
Originally Posted by Vicki_Ann View Post
So what about people who take all the precautionary measures, consult a behaviourist but do get the reasons/triggers behind a certain unwanted behaviour?

For example, take a reactive dog. Many people know the reasons/triggers etc behind the reactivity in their own dog and don't think of them as bad dogs, they work in their dogs' time towards overcoming the problems, taking all the necessary precautionary measures to ensure their dog is not a danger.
Another person with a reactive dog may call them aggressive/vicious etc (no 'excuses' made) and simply use negative reinforcement to correct the behaviour.

I guess this is part of the fundamental difference ....
What is a "bad" dog in one situation can be a "good" dog in another e.g a sharp ratting working terrier is excellent working a hayrick or under a shed, it could be another matter if that same dog, with it's same rat-killing/biting pounce reactivity to squeaky noises and jerky sudden movement were to be allowed near the neighbour's cat or unsupervised toddler - yes no dog should every be left with an unsupervised toddler but we all know, and see the evidence, that it happens. In fact in the majority of cases people get away with it surprisingly often.

As another example an intelligent, high energy, work-obsessed border collie is a godsend to a sheep farmer experienced in training and working collies, but those same qualities can create all sorts of problems in a typical pet home.

Horses for courses, as they say.
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Kerryowner
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18-11-2010, 10:50 PM
I often hear people saying "he's a rescue dog" as an excuse for their dog's bad behaviour but I think there is a difference between an excuse and a reason.

Cherry is strange dog reactive with large dogs but fine with small dogs-her reason being that she got attacked by a large dog and can't see very well now so gets stressed by strange large dogs suddenly zooming up in her face.

That is the reason for her behaviour but I keep her on a lead and don't use this as an excuse for letting her behave reactively to other dogs she doesn't like the look of!

People do come out with some strange excuses though-we know someone with a Border terrier that never went back when recalled and our Kerry Blue will recall from rabbits he is so good bless him but the owner of the Border said that Border terriers could not be recalled-that was a breed fault! If that was true then why risk letting them off the lead if you know they aren't going to come back!!
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TomtheLurcher
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18-11-2010, 10:50 PM
Originally Posted by Vicki_Ann
So what about people who take all the precautionary measures, consult a behaviourist but do get the reasons/triggers behind a certain unwanted behaviour?

For example, take a reactive dog. Many people know the reasons/triggers etc behind the reactivity in their own dog and don't think of them as bad dogs, they work in their dogs' time towards overcoming the problems, taking all the necessary precautionary measures to ensure their dog is not a danger.
Another person with a reactive dog may call them aggressive/vicious etc (no 'excuses' made) and simply use negative reinforcement to correct the behaviour.

I guess this is part of the fundamental difference ....


Completely understand this one, have a fear agressive dog , take all the precautions whilst out and about he is a dream at home , is he a bad dog , not IMO , has he been mistreated in the past yes , am I am bad owner , after months of delinerating No !! I have taken on the challenge of a dog with issues and doing my very best to correct things as best as I can and have a very loving dog who is getting there, firmly believe no bad dogs , only bad owners , only my opinion !
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sarah1983
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18-11-2010, 11:28 PM
I think it's wrong to know your dog has a problem behaviour and not attempt to do anything about it but I don't think trying to understand WHY the dog is behaving that way is making excuses for it. Unacceptable behaviour is unacceptable regardless of the reason but I think the reason is still important.
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SLB
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19-11-2010, 06:32 AM
Benjie is reactive to other dogs and used to be reactive to people, he still is at a certain extent, he lived in a reactive state for 5 years, then I arrived on the scene. No I am not a dog trainer, but I understand dogs.

I've got Benjie to the point that he will walk realtivley quiet alongside another dog - if it is on the other side of the road. He can now be around crowds of people and walk straight through them - he still grumbles if they try to touch him - but after they've given him a fuss, he's ok
He used to hate strangers and I know the cause of this - my OH's mum panicked every time a starnger person was near - making him react, like when we had the boiler and gas fitted, he was kept on a lead because she didnt trust him, the next day when she wasnt there he was happy to follow the gas man around - tail wagging and laid down whereever he stood - it was Louie who didnt like him much LOL - thats to be worked on.

His owners (my OH's Dad) allowed him to bark extensively at people walking past they're garden wall - this got stopped, he now only barks a few times then shuts up, I didnt really care that his neighbours liked it when he barked so that they knew someone was walking past - at 5 and 6am - it's rather annoying and set every other dog off. So he's only allowed to bark a few times.
His other neighbour who he can see because they live on a hill and it looks over their garden - is petrified of him because of his barking - she still wont fuss him even when he is calm and when I have him.

He's recently been randomly biting me (on another thread) for no reason, No explanation as to why - as of yet, I havent seen him for a week so we shall see how it is.

If he is being difficult on a walk, I will use the "Oh he's a rescue" to deter people from coming up and fussing him - when he doesnt want it, especially children, you would think a dog that is actually growling at you didnt want a fuss, but you'd be surprised who actually wants to fuss him.

So in a way, I do kind of make excuses, like when Sadie wont recall straight away "she's got seletive hearing" or if Louie has his hackles up and is barking at a strange person "He's just a pup" but he is always corrected, if I know the person for the simple reason of if my OH goes into the Marines/Army, I will be on my own in the countryside so I need a slightly stranger - reactive dog - I'd never allow it to get worse than just barking though.

This morning, I woke up to go to the toilet as I've had a very restless night, Louie went downstairs and I thought oh he's only going for a drink - so I climbed back into bed and left the door open for him, I heard a weeing sound so came downstairs, he'd wee'd at the bottom of the stairs and gone for a number 2 on a towel in the kitchen and in front of the TV - it was in no way his fault - I should've let him out - is exactly what I told my Dad (he was awake but I needed to explain why the washer was on and why there were damp patches everywhere - cleaner)

So if it genuinly is my fault, I will accept it, the dogs behaviour is only as bad as I allow it to get and if it's not behaviour I have failed to correct or taught them then I would be looking for a root cause - unfortunatley for Benjie he was a pup when he was picked up and has been with my OH's family for 6 years - they failed to correct his behaviour so he has never socialised with otehr dogs (until I arrived) never socialised with people, was allowed to pull on the lead, barked at everything and was a misery to take out (that sounds really bad) so they used the excuse that he was a rescue but he wasnt he was in there a week then you picked him up.

Their autistic son - now I know he is autistic but he understands what he's been told, is allowed to push Benjie's buttons til he turns round and bites him - this is probably the cause of his random bites on me, but their excuse for letting this happen is that Benjie will teach him - yeaah but what if a child wandered up to him and he mauled her face? In essence - I believe they were causing a dangerous dog, his has now stopped a lot - their son pushing his buttons.

His behaviour is improving and apart from the hiccup we have now - he is turning into a dog that I will actually like to take out on a walk, we're not to the extent of letting him off around other dogs but we're getting there

But yeaah behavioural issues should be looked into and solved
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ClaireandDaisy
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19-11-2010, 08:03 AM
Originally Posted by sarah1983 View Post
I think it's wrong to know your dog has a problem behaviour and not attempt to do anything about it but I don't think trying to understand WHY the dog is behaving that way is making excuses for it. Unacceptable behaviour is unacceptable regardless of the reason but I think the reason is still important.
Good post. There is no excuse for ignorance if you like .
I`ve been bitten twice - both were avoidable. Did I blame the dogs? No - but I learned two lessons - 1. a dog in pain will bite. 2. Secure all dogs after a dog fight.
Dogs are animals with big teeth. No matter how much we try to turn them into home accessories, they will alway remain animals. Blaming a poorly managed dog for reacting is pointless.
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sarah1983
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19-11-2010, 10:13 AM
if my OH goes into the Marines/Army, I will be on my own in the countryside so I need a slightly stranger - reactive dog - I'd never allow it to get worse than just barking though.
Sorry, I disagree. Mine absolutely ADORES people and is far less likely to bite than I am and I don't want to change that even if I am in the middle of nowhere alone. I taught him to bark on command instead of encouraging him to be reactive to people. A largeish dog lunging forward and barking is enough to deter most would be attackers.

I know from experience that if someone really wants to hurt you they will go through a dog who really will bite them to do so. They'll hurt the dog in the process too if neccessary. I don't know what Rupert would do if I were attacked, I would hope he'd stay out of it though to be honest.
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jem fong
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19-11-2010, 10:42 AM
I have always made excuses for my dogs - simply because i have trained dogs in the past and been very successfully. And couldnt see why it was so hard for me to train Nacho. Reflecting when i have taking my self out of the situation it is me not the dog. There are still aspects of His behaviour that i havent quite figured out what i am doing wrong but i trying.

for example if i come home from work stressed and snappy - i get 2 crazy dogs trying to run in all directions on the lead n barking at every lil thing they see. They are just matching their behaviour to how im feeling.

on a saturday taking them for a long long walk (after a nice long cuddle on the sofa with them both tucked in my dressing gown) they are the best dogs in the world - no shooting off, no barking, no fighting - just lovely well behaved doggies.

If i make sure they are calm and settle before i leave the house - no chewing or crying! but if i am in a rush and i shut them in with no indication i want them to relax - Chewed up window ledges - skirting board - sofa and to top it off non stop howling!

my moto now is to "correct myself before the dogs" and its working x
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Vicki_Ann
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19-11-2010, 11:39 AM
Originally Posted by sarah1983 View Post
Sorry, I disagree. Mine absolutely ADORES people and is far less likely to bite than I am and I don't want to change that even if I am in the middle of nowhere alone. I taught him to bark on command instead of encouraging him to be reactive to people. A largeish dog lunging forward and barking is enough to deter most would be attackers.

I know from experience that if someone really wants to hurt you they will go through a dog who really will bite them to do so. They'll hurt the dog in the process too if neccessary. I don't know what Rupert would do if I were attacked, I would hope he'd stay out of it though to be honest.
Agreed (with the disagreeing lol).

I thought it would be a good thing that Shiloh is a 'little bit' stranger reactive when he was about 8 months old, now several months later, I have a dog who is much more reactive than he was and now directs it at strange old people, strange children, strange dogs and most of all strange young man.

Bad idea. I would be sure to deal with any type of reactivity now and not think a little bit is okay. I've learnt the hard way
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cliffy
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19-11-2010, 11:40 AM
I will often tell people in the park 'he is a rescue dog' because it's an effective shorthand to stop them letting their dogs rush him when he is on the lead- and it makes them more sympathetic, sorry!
In the past, at the beginning of Cliffords life with us, when he snapped at a dog, I had a man shouting at me to ''kick him'', the fool. So you can get very self concious that people don't think you are doing enough to stop your dog, when in fact you are doing plenty, but it is through training not punishment.
Today, in a park we are not often in, Clifford was on the lead because he is still on gentle exercise after straining his back, but I was amazed how many people let their dogs rush him, even when they could see me turn and walk in a different direction! I called out 'my dog has an injury and may snap' and it worked like magic- so that might be my new mantra in those situations.
He has improved amazingly in the last couple of years, and is a much more confident and sociable dog, but I don't want to put him in a situation where he is hassled by a rude dog and gets into his old ways. So his encounters have to be managed. It's hard to communicate that to other people quickly when they are busy on their mobile phone not caring what their dog is doing, so the 'rescue dog' (or 'injury')soon gets some action.
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