If I read this correctly, what you are describing is reinforcement of a natural action, e.g. would be me using a retrieve as a reward for my dogs. But an individual dog's "most natural action", especially in a baby, is at least somewhat dependent on breed, is it not? Or are you speaking of something other than a genetically-driven action, e.g., a response that has been impacted upon by learning?

Ummm, did I not mention that I have made my living for the past umpteen years as an training instructor? And that I bred dogs? And that I showed in three different disciplines in several different states? And that I have attended seminars and conducted clinics myself? Would this not indicate a rather broad access to other dog owners?

As I stated previously, harsh methods are and will continue to be slow to change as long as those who use them continue to be rewarded for their use with "success"; especially if the "reward" is random, which I am sure you know is the strongest reward schedule of all.

No, not at all. for example, in the example I gave, I rewarded the instant down with a retrieve as that was his favourite reward.

I asked my dog for a down in that case as down came very naturally to him and was a position he often opted to take when trying out actions that resulted in reward. In other words, it didn't really need much training as it was his default position. My friend's Boxer on the other hand would have taken forever to train a 'down' regardless of distraction as he wasn't particularly keen on 'downing', his default was a stand so when stopping him mid track, she would use the 'stand' command and he'd stop mid run in a stand position.

Heavens, it so much easier to explain verbally than in writing, but I know what I mean

I did say I skim read often and that I tend to read quite a few posts very early or very late. Add that to 'senior moments' which come far more often than I like these days and you'll have to excuse my missing one or two key points

Oh, thank you!

Wys
x

I looked at the links you provided several times, that "sprollie" was a treat, was she not? I was in agreement with most everything I saw; this is, as stated, how I teach and condition. The trainer did a few things differently than I would have, some of which I would consider counter-productive, but that should not come as a surprise to anyone.

My biggest problem with the vids was not with her method, but with the message that some viewers may have gotten from them. Brierley and I discussed the potential for misinterpretation of instruction in some prior posts. By the trainer's own admission in response to one of a viewer's questions, she had earlier laid a foundation for teaching the stop, but explained that only in response to the question. Absent that question and response, and given that they were not in the vids, I could see how they could easily convey the ideas, among others, that is possible to teach a reliable stop in two sessions, that the teaching will occur as a straight-line progression, and that the dogs involved will never fail once they learn the response.

In other words, what the vids seem to show IMO, is the result of the training that had occurred off camera; what the vids did not seem to impart was the complete process, and collateral knowledge that is required in order to achieve that result. I have met many folks who would have gotten a totally different message from those vids than the one that was intended.

I did note that Brierley, and I know well that you had no intention to be deliberately obtuse. I have the same problems as you re:time, and have plenty of experience with senior moments.

I'm down with that Brierly, verbal is also much faster than writing!

Why do suppose your dog used down as his his go-to response when trying to learn a new behavior?

Oh come on! You would have to be as thick as two short planks (stupid) to believe those videos were a quick fix to emergency stopping a dog.

How long and how boring would the video be if she began with a green dog? If anything, for me, she went on for long enough to get the point across.

Ok Wys, your turn, finally!!

The process would depend to some extent on the individual dog, so I will pick a brandy-new pup for my explanation, one which knows nothing of the stay command, and is acting on an innate drive.

1. I initially prevent this behavior from ever being rewarded with attention. I do not allow boneheads who encourage jumping access to the pup, and I start to "de-program" the behavior, if you will, by showing the pup that he is not indeed the center of the universe every time someone walks in the door.

2. I begin reward/play training of all commands at 7 weeks, earlier in litters I have bred. Because a static exercise is compulsive by nature, I do not use food as a reward as I find it causes too many mistakes when the dog is over-stimulated by it, and I want the pup to succeed. I am using a secondary reinforcer in combination with the primary one in my teaching of dynamic commands, and use that same reinforcer for static commands.

3. Remember that when I am teaching and conditioning, I am doing everything possible to make the right thing easy and wrong thing hard. In the case of stay, I work distraction-free, keep time and distance from the dog absolutely minimal, and use two physical aids to help the pup. This lessens the chance that the pup will fail; when he does, and notice I say when and not if, I merely give a mild no and gently replace him. As the pup exhibits increased understanding/acceptance of the exercise, I begin to increase time and distance as rapidly as that pup allows, ultimately at this stage to 30 seconds and six feet.
4. Up to now, I am taking the responsibility for making the pup successful. At some point I will judge that it is time to transfer the responsibility for "being right" to the pup, and; i.e., the pup demonstrates that he clearly understands the correct response, and that the correct response generates a pleasant result; he knows what he can do, now it is time to show him that he must do what he has learned, no matter what the venue or distraction level. He also learns that he has a choice: Do the right thing and all is copacetic; choose the wrong thing and the result is an unpleasant one, in the form of a correction tailored to the individual pup (it may be something as simple as a growl), and the circumstances of the failure. I am gradually raising the distraction level to the one I believe is strongest for pup, increasing time and distance, and moving to new venues to encourage generalization of the learning. This is the proofing stage of training.
5. With regard to jumping: At some point I will begin exposing the pup to opportunities to indulge in jumping. I mostly ignore them, in some cases I will be a bit more proactive by taking a step forward just as he leaves the ground, or standing on the leash at a point that leaves the pup just enough slack to produce a bit of a shot (read unpleasant result) when he hits the end of it; in other words, I am introducing the concept of "unpleasant result" via self-correction. I also reward the pup which decides to try something other than jumping.The pup begins to learn that some behaviors get "corrected" and alternatives get rewarded, that he can avoid that correction by choosing to not repeat the offense (thus he controls the correction), and correction is not the end of the world.
6. Ultimately I put all this together, and view and use greeting occasions as opportunities for proofing. The shock collar would be used only according to the principles I have already explained in previous posts;the command involved would "sit".

Brierley, with regard to your post #327, inducing a behavior with the use of a lure is eliciting. Food (or whatever you use as a motivator) has three functions to me: I use it to focus attention, to lure the dog into position (elicit the response), and as a primary reinforcer (paired with a secondary reinforcer, which is the word "good" spoken in a tone that is distinct from the command tone).

I don't reward approximations, that is not what I want the dog to learn. I ignore "wrong" responses and if the pup is focussed and doesn't get it before he starts getting frustrated or loses interest, I will physically help him out (often have to do this with clients' dogs for the the down). I want to get a rewardable response quickly. I am teaching single behaviors with short response times at this stage, not chained ones.

I do fade the reward to random schedule, and I do teach hand signals such as those used for handling to a blind retrieve, but only after the dog is solid on the verbals.

And I do indeed "punish" myself for bonehead mistakes, altho kicking myself is not an option at my age. I once punished my mistake by smashing my fist into an ash tree as hard as I could; it worked, I never made that particular error again, but the ER doctor said that I was darn lucky I merely cracked two bones, because from the appearance of the hand he thought I had crushed the whole thing.