Brierley, I believe I did indeed use the word "observation". Very early on I did a seminar with Volhard's, and took classes with two of his clones. I have already related what I saw in one of them (the trainer inadvertently slamming the rott pup's head into a metal gatepost), now let me give you another with a different trainer:

I enrolled two 4 month old pups this class. One was a pup which I was handling, and the other his littermate, the Alpha male I have spoken of, handled by my son, who was 14 at the time. In the second class the trainer wanted to use my pup to demonstrate the recall. He did something, sorry but I can't recall what exactly, that seemed to me to be counter to what I had learned about the method. What I do remember was that he never asked anything about the pup, e.g., how and what I had taught so far, physical condition of the pup. etc.

Anyhoo, that night he overheard a few of us planning to go out for pizza after class, and invited himself along. During the meal I advised him, politely but very firmly, that it would be a really bad idea to use my son's pup for one of his "demonstrations". In the very next class, he looked right at me as he announced he needed a demo dog and headed straight for my son. My son glanced over at me with a smirk on his face (even at his tender age he knew where this was going), and handed the trainer the leash. (The folks who had heard me advise him to not do that the week before looked a bit non-plussed, to put it mildly, and two of them actually asked me later if I did classes). The trainer said nothing to the pup and began walking away. The pup locked up solid when the leash tightened; the trainer turned back to face him, took one look at the expression on that baby's face (read magnum stink eye), and to his credit, walked back and returned the leash to my son without a word. The trainer then selected a "more agreeable" candidate for the lesson and moved on.

Now tell me true, what do you suppose everybody learned from this incident?

This incident and the other one I experienced are perfect examples of what I noted earlier. They clearly show that all methods are subject misuse by folks who don't truly understand the theory behind the method, and refuse to acknowledge what they don't know. And as for the "say-so" of clients, I take that with a grain of salt for several reasons, and draw conclusions based on what I see from their dogs.

After witnessing these things, did I draw the conclusion that the method was bad? (Which incidently is what some folks here seem to be inclined to doing.) No, I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but I was able to see that it was the misuse of the method that was wrong. And once again, my sole purpose in starting this thread, despite the altered title, was to learn how to use reward based/positive methods properly.

Good post!

Your examples are of the results of the method, not the how of the method, no?

And your comment about BC's (wonderful dogs!) is most interesting, what did you mean by it?

Well, hunting (which is indeed a fun pursuit for both of us, well except for the freezing to death part takes up a ton of time, as does my business, so between that and my (pretty serious health problems), I don't have much leisure time. What little time I do have is spent in homely pursuits, which mostly include my dog.

Actually, I have had the receiver surgically implanted in his neck, saves time don'tcha know.

I am very happy to learn that your dogs never make a mistake that requires reinforcement of a command; unfortunately, IME, they all do. And If I recall correctly, we did indeed discuss your dog's involvement in a life-threatening scenario.

No, I don't "know" you and your dogs personally, and the reverse is also true; you don't know me and mine. That is is exactly one reason (another one is the misinterpretation of the typed word)that I try very hard to not assume things, but instead ask for clarification.

Your comment about scope to get into trouble is an example of assuming something not in evidence. I have related several incidents that have illustrated the fact that my dogs have plenty of opportunities to do so, and indeed one of them seemed to seek out such opportunities, LOL.

As for the last of your reply, I don't live on the moon, we do indeed have confined areas here. I have had occasion to hunt within 20 yards of a very heavily traveled road, and live 130 feet from same. And as for "acceptable standard", IME the use of that term tends to be situational
and depends on the user, i.e., many people whom I meet in my business have a definition of "acceptable" that is quite different from mine, or no standard at all. Obviously your standards set the bar very high, as do mine.

Doesn't really matter what breed of dog, finding their most natural action goes a long way when finding what emergency command to use. With my BC it was the down, with another dog it may be a stand, a leave, a sit - whatever.
.

I can only tell you how I do it.

Lure the position

Reward the position (or initially an approximation of the position)

When consistent, introduce voice and hand signal command and reward each successful completion of the maneuver.

Drop the lure and work with voice and hand signal and reward each success

When consistent, put the reward on variable reinforcement schedule

If mistakes happen, go back a step and start again from a successful point in the training

Reward the good, kick yourself for moving on too quickly when things go wrong

The reason I asked is that you move in very limited circles with your dogs. I don't mean anything wrong by that, but it appears you have limited access to dog owners outside your field of interest.

Unfortunately, gundog training here seems one of the slowest to emerge out from under severe corrections and harsh methods, but it is developing and we are seeing more and more of those interested in the sport turning to more positive methods with great success

Meant to ask this awhile ago in response to other posts. When you folks say "sport", are you referring to competition?

Your examples all describe the totally uneducated use of aversives, and a lack of knowledge of behavior, thank you for providing them as examples of things I do not do.

As an aside, down does indeed mean assume a certain position, which is one reason I why I use "off" (four on the floor, please) instead.

The things you describe are absolutely SOP to uneducated owners, I see them all the time. My decades-long experience has shown me, however, that properly use of aversives can and does make training easier on the dog.

And I have not forgotten my promise!!

Excellent Brierley, thank you! I will respond to this in concert with Wys's question about teaching a dog not to jump.