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View Poll Results: Poll - Do you agree you should be alpha male over your dog?
Yes 70 39.33%
No 71 39.89%
Other, please specify 37 20.79%
Voters: 178. You may not vote on this poll - please see pinned thread in this section for details.



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Gnasher
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01-05-2009, 07:23 PM
Originally Posted by Promethean View Post
I'm in agreement with the statement that CM is a dog kicker. Sure, he'll call it a touch, and give it a little flair by doing it behind the leg, but in the end it is still a kick.
One of my main (and there are a whole lot!!) problems with Millan is his need to shove the dog face to face with it's trigger (dogs, people, traffic, etc) and then punish the hell out of the dog for something he created.
Promethean, we could go on arguing about whether it's a kick or a nudge until the cow's come home and go back out again !

I disagree entirely with your second paragraph though. The best way for any intelligent animal, including us, to get over a particular fear, is to face up to it. When you fall off a horse, you get straight back on. Cesar quite rightly IMO will do exactly this but incidentally, he DOES NOT PUNISH THE HELL out of a dog ! You cannot make such a libellous statement ! Well, you can, but then don't complain if CM's legal boys sue the pants off you !! 002:

I got my old boy Hal over his fear of thunder (which incidentally I had created in the first place myself, by jumping out of my skin every time there was a crack overhead), by making him face up to it, and showing him that there was absolutely nothing to be afraid of.

What would you do in such circumstances? Cuddle him? Reinforce his fear by giving him positive attention? This is the worst thing you could do, you have to show the dog, or the human for that matter, through your calm assertive leadership that there really is nothing to fear.
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Gnasher
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01-05-2009, 07:24 PM
Originally Posted by Promethean View Post
Gnasher, this isn't religion where you get to decide "truth" based on beliefs. This is about science, and you can't pick and choose. While you are fully welcomed to your opinion, you are not free to make up or ignore facts for the sake of it. There are no "personal truths" when it comes to science; in the face of the evidence your tenacious defence of dominance theory makes as much sense as that of a flat-Earther or a YEC.
I wasn't aware that I had !!
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Gnasher
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01-05-2009, 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
Gnasher - I think you just like a good debate TBH. I really don`t believe you hold the opposing view, I think you`ve picked your corner and have decided to make the Forum equivalent of Custers Last Stand.
None of your posts about the way you actually live or treat your dogs bears out your claim to be in an Alpha Male role.
When this is pointed out, you switch to an alternative debating tactic. Have you thought of going into politics at all?
No I haven't Claire & Daisy !

And I'm not alpha male, I'm alpha female !!

I do love a good debate, this is absolutely true, but every word I say is also absolutely true and I believe in wholeheartedly. I believe I am alpha female, I am Pack leader, along with alpha male, my old man ! I wasn't aware of switching to alternative debating tactics though, I'm very impressed with myself if I do, because that means I'm quite clever after all !! Could you give me some examples? I'll get some more respect from my bloody smug OH who thinks he's God's Gift because he's got a degree and went to university !!
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Promethean
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02-05-2009, 05:49 AM
Actually Gnasher, flooding is one of the worst ways to address fear. The results are unpredictable and can create additional phobias which is why flooding is not used under clinical situations without drug the preferred method. Desensitization, visualization, councelling and drug therapy is the typical protocol.
With animals, fear is under Palovian control [Maren S (2001). Neurobiology of Pavlovian fear conditioning. Annu Rev Neurosci, 24: 897–931.] and a simple Pavlovian approach has proven very effective with various species. I find your use of false dichotomies disappointing, there are more options available than cuddling or flooding. And the comparison to humans is of limited value since humans are capable of rational thought but even in humans when the transition goes from fear to phobias reason is no longer effective.

I maintain that Millan intentionally puts the dog in situations where the dog will negatively respond jus so he can punish the dog. It is a pattern that he has repeated to nauseating effect in every season. And by my standards, chocking, pinning, kicking and jabbing a dog for somehting he caused does fall under "punishing the hell out of a dog".

I think you give yourself too much credit or blame as the case may be. I find it curious you think that you can create a phobia in a dog by acting scared but not cure it by consoling him. It feels a bit like magical thinking to me. And I recall a study from 2006 that showed consolling a storm phobic dog had NO EFFECT. This idea that you make things worse is not supported by the data.
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Wysiwyg
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02-05-2009, 06:06 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
I think its the riboxynucleic one Wys, but not sure either ! RNA is summat to do wi'proteins, as they say in Yorkshire !! I'm a bit norty when it comes to proper research of both sides of a coin. I like to learn about something through practical application rather than study, because I'm not a brainbox like yourself ! It drives OH up the wall, s****y ******* with his all BSc Hons degrees and what not ! He had the damn cheek to laugh at my 5 O Levels the other day !!
Oh I'm not a brainbox I have to work hard just to understand things sometimes

I know what you mean about practical application; the best mix is that of theory and practical in my view regarding dog training and behaviour. And speaking generally, any study is useful, whether 5 O levels or 5 degrees

Wys
x
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Wysiwyg
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02-05-2009, 06:18 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
...To Promethean:The best way for any intelligent animal, including us, to get over a particular fear, is to face up to it.
Humans can face up to fears more easily because they have their powers of reasoning, etc. Even then they may find it very hard to do so without professional help.

Equally, it is true to say some never do mange to face up to their fears.

Humans also have a choice, I don't particularly want to sort out one of my fears and so simply don't. I am lucky to have that luxury

Dogs and animals generally are much better off exposed gradually to the problem at a level where they do not react, and where they learn that the thing that frightened them is not actually harmful, and is in fact perhaps even pleasant, this is classical conditioning

Reputable behaviourists use this method.

With the other method, firstly it's extremely unkind if an animal is really frightened (not talking about you and your dogs here Gnasher but some of the things I've seen) and secondly it risks damaging trust and also the possibility of the dog panicking so much that it is totally counterproductive.

Once it is started, the outcome cannot be predicted and damage can be done.

When you fall off a horse, you get straight back on.
Not me, I usually get back on the next day if I have a choice

Wys
x
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Ramble
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02-05-2009, 06:36 AM
If you fall off a horse, you may not be able to get right back on, depending upon the severity of the fall.
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ClaireandDaisy
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02-05-2009, 07:53 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
No I haven't Claire & Daisy !

And I'm not alpha male, I'm alpha female !!

I do love a good debate, this is absolutely true, but every word I say is also absolutely true and I believe in wholeheartedly. I believe I am alpha female, I am Pack leader, along with alpha male, my old man ! I wasn't aware of switching to alternative debating tactics though, I'm very impressed with myself if I do, because that means I'm quite clever after all !! Could you give me some examples? I'll get some more respect from my bloody smug OH who thinks he's God's Gift because he's got a degree and went to university !!
The best one is to answer a question with a question
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Gnasher
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02-05-2009, 10:15 AM
Originally Posted by Promethean View Post
In efforts to avoid a religious war, I decline to answer
Promethean, don't be such an old stuffed shirt !! You cannot now leave us all for ever more wondering what a YEC is !! PM me if you don't want to tell in public ... pretty please !!
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Gnasher
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02-05-2009, 10:19 AM
Originally Posted by Promethean View Post
Actually Gnasher, flooding is one of the worst ways to address fear. The results are unpredictable and can create additional phobias which is why flooding is not used under clinical situations without drug the preferred method. Desensitization, visualization, councelling and drug therapy is the typical protocol.
With animals, fear is under Palovian control [Maren S (2001). Neurobiology of Pavlovian fear conditioning. Annu Rev Neurosci, 24: 897–931.] and a simple Pavlovian approach has proven very effective with various species. I find your use of false dichotomies disappointing, there are more options available than cuddling or flooding. And the comparison to humans is of limited value since humans are capable of rational thought but even in humans when the transition goes from fear to phobias reason is no longer effective.

I maintain that Millan intentionally puts the dog in situations where the dog will negatively respond jus so he can punish the dog. It is a pattern that he has repeated to nauseating effect in every season. And by my standards, chocking, pinning, kicking and jabbing a dog for somehting he caused does fall under "punishing the hell out of a dog".

I think you give yourself too much credit or blame as the case may be. I find it curious you think that you can create a phobia in a dog by acting scared but not cure it by consoling him. It feels a bit like magical thinking to me. And I recall a study from 2006 that showed consolling a storm phobic dog had NO EFFECT. This idea that you make things worse is not supported by the data.

Promethean - you completely misunderstand the situation. I did NOT purposely show fear, to make my dog frightened ! What on earth sort of monster do you think I am !! I am terrified of very loud thunder claps right above the house, and when these happen, will always jump and exclaim. Hal, being exceptionally intelligent and very sharp, picked up on this immediately and because I am alpha female or Pack leader, what you will, he thought "aha, there must be something in this thunder, AF is scared so therefore I had better be.

I don't call making a child, a dog, a horse, whatever, face up to a fear flooding. I call it commonsense !

I await to hear what YOU suggest I should have done with Hal's fear of thunder, caused by me NOT deliberately.
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