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Wysiwyg
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30-07-2011, 06:41 AM
Originally Posted by Mahooli View Post
I'm not sure how to say this but watch the
SHADOW
episode.
Becky


There are some good slow motion vids around of this, not sure where they are or if they have been got rid of by the CM team, but they were pretty horrible to watch.

However it's dressed up, it's all about physically strangling a dog.

Wys
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Wysiwyg
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30-07-2011, 06:54 AM
HOORAY!!

I have found the thread I started about the behind the scenes video, and the dog being wound up on purpose ready for TV - and the video is still working

Bangkaew, this is the sort of thing I am referring to. It's actually very interesting, but if you listen to what the TV guy is saying, you start to understand the whole of what is going on .....


http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=140935

A little bit from it:

"In this clip, they take a known aggressive dog and deliberately provoke an attack. Cesar just laughs about it, completely unaware the he has just reinforced the behaviour he is supposed to be eliminating"

Wys
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sarah1983
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30-07-2011, 11:44 AM
Originally Posted by BangKaew View Post
What sort of dog have you got! ? My dog can do that easy. He also drives me around town so I can chill out in the back!

No but seriously, Cesar can not use his mouth so he uses his fingers. Show me an episode where the dog passed out. With the Jindo and the Malamut he has to pull them up in order not to be bitten. I mean these dogs had been shown a lot of love and I really do not think anyone else could have rehabilitated them. Maybe they could but Cesar did it the way another dog would. It might not be ok to some people but that is How dogs do it. By saying, I make the rules around here.


I do not have a problem with Tsst.
He did not HAVE to string the dogs up. He could have found a way that didn't involve putting the dogs in a position where they felt so threatened they had to bite in the first place! This is one of the problems I have with his methods, he forces the dogs to bite in an attempt to defend themselves. And he doesn't address the root of the problem at all. If a dog's reacting aggresively because it's frightened he does NOTHING to change how the dog feels, he simply forces the dog to comply with his wishes.

As for CM correcting them the way a dog would, well that's rubbish imo. First of all, he's not a dog and the dogs know it. Secondly, a dog generally doesn't go straight for a warning bite let alone an alpha roll! Milan skips every other warning and goes straight for the "bite". That's unfair and NOT how dogs correct each other.

Episodes where the dog has passed out? There are several of them. There are even more episodes where he's kept the choke chain so tight the dog has been unable to breathe and when it's loosened the dog has just dropped and lay there gasping for breath.

I don't have a problem with tsst on its own, it's just a noise that could be used to interrupt a behaviour, used as a marker to indicate a reward coming, used as a recall command or whatever. It is NOT the magic wand so many people seem to think it is, it's been paired with a jab to the neck or other aversive so that it becomes an aversive in itself.
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AmoAngelus
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30-07-2011, 12:29 PM
I must admit to having "slapped" my dogs bottom before, but not hard enough to make him yelp and certainly not hard enough or regular enough to cause the behviour in those videos...cowering, and lunging...It's disgusting! I firmly believe in the reward system with few and far between negatives. Of course there will be a time where negative are needed to reinforce the posatives, but a bad noise hould be enough in most cases and if you do need to take further action than that, then it need to be proportional. You wouldn't teach a child how to potty train by beating it, choking it and generally having social services called on you, so why is a dog any different? Possative for the most part, but a well established punishment for when needed so you and your dog know what happens if the dog misbehaves and you don't loose control and the dog knows that if it does something it won't like the results. Aggression only begets aggression.
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taz_in_2001
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30-07-2011, 10:04 PM
I'd kick him in the face if I ever met the man in person. I think it is disgusting behaviour, dog whisperer my backside, dog abuser more like. That great dane shot says it all, the camera cuts out, exactly so none of us can see that the poor old dog got a major kick to some part of its body, you can tell that kick wasn't going to be a tap just from CM's body position!!!! grrrr
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BangKaew
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01-08-2011, 03:40 AM
Most people just say "dominance" and don't know what they mean, althoug usually they refer to a situation of "rank" or "hierarchy".
I disagree. When Cesar talks about dominance he is talking about energy. Some people like some dogs have a high or strong energy and Cesar apparently has it. My dogs are a great indicator of someone's energy. My elder dog when he was young would urinate when certain people visited. Perfectly normal for a puppy and he does not do it anymore, apart from with one French guy. This guy is not unusually big and is a great guy, but you would not want to cross him. His brother is actually physically tougher but has a less strong energy. The second dog normally barks at white men (as opposed to Thai men and women) because he is afraid but he simply hides and stays silent. This guy has always been charming but the dogs just know. Same way that usually a cat will be dominant over a dog in the home as they have the stronger energy.
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BangKaew
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01-08-2011, 04:23 AM
Originally Posted by Mahooli View Post
Check out the Shadow episode, the dog was doing nothing before he got a 'nudge' in the guts!
Becky
Here is the clip;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh9YOyM2TAk

It is the Malamut that I mentioned before. First of all this is more wolf than dog who would attack other dogs and whose owners could not control (could you? ) . This dog did not have any respect for anyone and certainly did not obey commands. Cesar's way, which is not the only way but is one way, is to do what a dog pack leader would do; dominate so the other dog obeys through fear. That may sound awful but that is how a dog pack leader controls the pack and why Cesar uses that method.

Secondly. Cesar only strings him up when the Malamut is about to go for the other dog, Cesar corrects it, and goes to bite Cesar. Two points here. Dominating the dog. Cesar corrected the dog and the dog said 'you do not tell me what to do, you do not dominate me, I dominate you'. By stringing up as you say, Cesar was showing the dog that he was in control. Second point is that if Cesar did not pull the dogs front feet off the ground, the dog would be able to bite him so it was merely stopping a bite.
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BangKaew
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01-08-2011, 04:26 AM
Originally Posted by Mahooli View Post
I'm not sure how to say this but watch the
SHADOW
episode.
Becky
Oh and it never passed out
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BangKaew
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01-08-2011, 04:45 AM
"One disturbing example is JonBee, a Jindo who is forced to lie on his side. After a significant and dangerous struggle (during which the dog appears to have urinated), the dog finally gives up and allows himself to be rolled over."
Yes it is disturbing and I would agree not worth it. As Wys says, there was no problem other than the dog would not 'submit to the owner in the home'. Asian breeds in my opinion are the most aggressive and have been bred to be so. The Akita, Jindo and Chow etc. This dog was one hard street dog who did not trust entirely. He had made a lot of progress but they wanted complete submission and therefore called in Cesar. Cesar tried but IMO he should have said 'look some dogs just can not offer complete submission due to trust issues and would rather fight to the death'. Mutual respect should have been good enough.
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BangKaew
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01-08-2011, 04:57 AM
Milan skips every other warning and goes straight for the "bite". That's unfair and NOT how dogs correct each other.
Well he does that when a Tsst is not effective. The Tsst as you say is only useful as the dogs know it comes from Cesar and they know that if they do not obey they will get a bite. That is exactly how a dog does it; growl/show teeth warning and then bite. It might not be pretty but they are not human, they are dawgs.
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