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Moobli
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18-09-2011, 01:49 PM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
I do not personally think of them as pros and cons, I have been lucky enough to compete at the highest level in the UK in both sports, competing in both the GSDL Nationals and the KCCs (Kennel Club Championships) I enjoy both for different reasons.
You are clearly a dedicated competitor SB
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Moobli
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18-09-2011, 02:03 PM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
The main differences in nosework are as follows:

The style of tracking is paramount in Schutzhund, it has to be consistent in speed around all corners and legs. Otherwise the aim for both is the same to get round a track as accurately as possible with as few deviations/casts as you can.

The other difference in nosework is that you can qualify the tracking in Schutzhund without recovering any articles, that is not possible in WT. In addition in Schutzhund 3 you will have a maximum of 5 legs, in WT you can have up to 30!

There is no search square in Schutzhund.

The main differences in the agility section is that the dog has to retrieve over a 1m hurdle in Schutzhund and over an A frame.

In WT the dog has to negotiate a 6ft scale, maintain a nominated position and return, a 3ft hurdle and 9ft long jump.

The main differences in Obedience is that heelwork must be very stylised and tight in Schutzhund, in WT it is supposed to be in a “natural” manner, both have slow, medium and fast pace.

The sendaway is very short in Schutzhund and there is no redirect in any of the stakes. There is no speak in the obedience section in Schutzhund.

The stays have already been mentioned as have the gun tests etc.

PD is an optional stake in Working Trials.

Ps If you are worried about the jumps in WT then I would suggest another sport.

I do not know of any dog that has been injured on the jumps in WT and of course those of us that compete in WT would not risk our dogs on the jumps if we thought it was dangerous

If you need any more info let me know.

My dogs have all loved the tracking and the jumps, I would not say obedience was my Weims strongest points though!

My GSD is the only who loved the bitework.

I love Schutzhund for the precision (I find it very similar to dressage) I love WT for the variety.
Thanks for that comprehensive reply. I still think WT is going to be the one for us - partly for reasons already mentioned. It is therefore reassuring to know that you have never known a dog injure itself on the jumps or scale in WT. Why do you think there is the controversy surrounding the scale and long jump?
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Moobli
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18-09-2011, 02:05 PM
Originally Posted by nickmcmechan View Post
out of interest SB, do you have dogs that you have comnpeted in both sports or do you use one dog for one and another dog for the other?
Yes, would love to know that too. Is it possible to train one dog for both sports? I am guessing so - for someone with time and experience?
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smokeybear
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18-09-2011, 05:05 PM
My GSD does both he is Schutzhund 3 CDex UDex WDex and qualified to work TD Championship.

My Weimaraner has CDex UDex WDex TDex (plus a ticket) and a BH, FH1 and FH2 in Schutzhund.
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Moobli
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18-09-2011, 05:25 PM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
My GSD does both he is Schutzhund 3 CDex UDex WDex and qualified to work TD Championship.

My Weimaraner has CDex UDex WDex TDex (plus a ticket) and a BH, FH1 and FH2 in Schutzhund.
What an achievement - well done!
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nickmcmechan
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19-09-2011, 01:56 PM
Originally Posted by Moobli View Post
Why do you think there is the controversy surrounding the scale and long jump?
My dog is about 2 1/2 ft high (standing on its hind legs) and the scale jump is 6 ft. I am just under 6ft so its kinda like me doing a scale 15 ft high. Some dogs jump from the top (like mine) so people think the logic would say that its bound to lead to injury.......and there starts the debate!

Theres an article about it in WTM (Working Trials Monthly) which makes interesting reading.

My personal opinion (but I've only been trialling for a couple of years) is that if your dog is fit and healthy (lots of exercise, the right foods etc) then your setting the dog up for success.
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nickmcmechan
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19-09-2011, 01:59 PM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
My GSD does both he is Schutzhund 3 CDex UDex WDex and qualified to work TD Championship.

My Weimaraner has CDex UDex WDex TDex (plus a ticket) and a BH, FH1 and FH2 in Schutzhund.


Superb...!
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smokeybear
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19-09-2011, 02:00 PM
Originally Posted by nickmcmechan View Post
My dog is about 2 1/2 ft high and the scale jump is 6 ft. I am just under 6ft so its kinda like me doing a scale 15 ft high. Some dogs jump from the top (like mine) so people think the logic would say that its bound to lead to injury.......and there starts the debate!

Theres an article about it in WTM (Working Trials Monthly) which makes interesting reading.

My personal opinion (but I've only been trialling for a couple of years) is that if your dog is fit and healthy (lots of exercise, the right foods etc) then your setting the dog up for success.
Mondio dogs have to go over 7ft and you do not see them moaning about the height of their scale!

It is more about fit for function, breeding from the right stock (many dogs in WT were not bred specifically for this purpose and are say pet bred whereas in Schutzhund, Mondio, KNPV more of the competitors are actually purpose bred.

It is more about correct training and right from the start expecting a dog to scale up and down rather than do the kamikaze jump.

Long jump is probably more of an issue according to most vets (some of whom compete in WT) I speak to.

All the dogs I know that have injuries have sustained them outside the WT arena.

There are very small dogs doing the scale including a cocker spaniel.

As always it is not necessarily about the size of the jump for the dog but the amount of jump in the dog!

My Weim was still scaling 6ft at 10 years of age! She may still be able to do so, but I do not ask her to.

The jump issue comes up regularly about every 3 years or so.......
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nickmcmechan
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19-09-2011, 02:05 PM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
It is more about correct training and right from the start expecting a dog to scale up and down rather than do the kamikaze jump.

As always it is not necessarily about the size of the jump for the dog but the amount of jump in the dog!
liked those points

from the experience i have (so far!) if you walk up to those jumps with the slightest worry the dog picks up on it and dosen't make them. Every time she's missed the jumps has either been down to my set up (inexperience and changing routines slightly) or i personally have been on an off day

as i keep being told, its never the dog.....its the handler!!!
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Moobli
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19-09-2011, 03:47 PM
Thanks guys - it all makes sense.

I was considering taking Yogi (my WG showline longhair) to the local working trials club to see whether we got on with the training and to get an idea whether I enjoy training it - before making my mind up about whether to continue it with the workline dog when he comes along.

However, after reading your comments, I wonder if I should stick to tracking and scent working and bits of obedience with him as, even though he is quite athletic, he obviously hasn't been specifically bred for sport and may therefore sustain injury more easily? (If I am reading this all correctly).
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