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Velvetboxers
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07-01-2011, 11:03 AM
Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
How odd. I've said twice now that if you have nowhere safe then I consider that not feeding is the best option.

In terms of where. Nowhere will ever be 100% safe for a bird, but common sense should be used when choosing a feeding spot in a garden that cats are likely to easily enter and kill the bird. It really is a simple as that.
Quite, you advised I should feed them - I explained why I dont.....
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Noushka05
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07-01-2011, 11:25 AM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
I wouldnt have botherd if it gets to you so much, your choice.

Cats are kept as pets, Foxes are not. Wolves arent pets are they? Some people think its ok for them to live in homes though, your argument falls at the first hurdle Im afraid.

Dont they already? I do.

Like what species? Thats a cracking statement I must say.
yep your right it is MY choice thanks

and your point about cats being pets and foxes and wolves not is what exactly?....do you mean they have a right to kill wildlife but native predators dont???? ...i have siberian huskies a dog know for its prey drive and hunting abilities do i allow them to roam across the countryside killing the wildlife....No, because i love wildlife too much and i take responsibility for my pets!

ive just copied and pasted some facts below but ive added a few links aswell, and if after reading them you dont agree that free roaming cats are responsible for causing untold destruction not just to our wildlife but wildlife across the globe than you are seriously burying you head in the sand! ...and some might say very hypocritical!

Despite the difficulties in showing the effect most predators have on their prey, cats are known to have serious impacts on small mammals and birds. Worldwide, cats may have been involved in the extinction of more bird species than any other cause, except habitat destruction. Cats are contributing to the endangerment of populations of birds such as Least Terns, Piping Plovers and Loggerhead Shrikes. In Florida, marsh rabbits in Key West have been threatened by predation from domestic cats [11]. Cats introduced by people living on the barrier islands of Florida's coast have depleted several unique species of mice and woodrats to near extinction.

Because of their ability to overwhelm existing native species and natural ecosystem processes in environments in which they have been introduced, domestic cats are
moreover classified as invasive species. Invasive species, particularly predators, together with habitat destruction, have been a major cause of declines and extinctions of native species throughout the world for the past few centuries (Clavero and García-Berthou 2005). An analysis
of the International Union for the Conservation of Nature (IUCN) database has shown that predation alone and in concert with other contributing factors is responsible for more than 80% of all documented vertebrate extinctions . Due largely to impacts resulting
from its predation on other species, the domestic
cat is listed by the IUCN as one of the “100 of the world’s worst invasive alien species".



http://www.environment.sa.gov.au/bio...r_brochure.pdf

http://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/...estic_cats.pdf

http://www.thepetcenter.com/article.aspx?id=3482

http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proce...3989&O=Generic

http://www.mammal.org.uk/index.php?o...256&Itemid=289
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rune
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07-01-2011, 11:38 AM
Can't give you reps but excellent post.

I love cats but do know the damage they cause as a species.

rune
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Noushka05
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07-01-2011, 11:55 AM
Originally Posted by rune View Post
Can't give you reps but excellent post.

I love cats but do know the damage they cause as a species.

rune
thank you Rune

I love cats aswell theyre great animals ... but owners should face up to the damage they do and understand that they dont belong to any ecosystems anywhere on the planet, if i ever had one, like many of my friends i would keep it indoors where it would be safe and so would our wildlife
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chaz
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07-01-2011, 12:01 PM
Originally Posted by spot View Post
Equally wild life falls prey to pets!
True, just look at the Stephens Island Wren, life happens, predators hunt, its sad, but thats the way life goes, if nothing hunted, well the predators would struggle, and the herbivores would also struggle if they then ate too much because they were able to over breed , in life things must be killed to keep others living, which to me killing a fox that was meant to have killed a cat meant that the cats death was a waste, but then I do have thoughts on people's behaviours that affect Foxes, and I do think that sometimes hunting needs to happen for the good of the species, and do think that soon it might need to happen to Foxes in urban areas, for a animal that has no real natural predators now, but unfornatly is getting a easy ride because of people, Foxes have become a victim I believe of their own success in adapting to take advantage of people (not that we are helping in any way at all!), we are not inocent, and the Fox is suffering because of us, but I think we do need to take responsibility for this.
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spockky boy
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07-01-2011, 12:39 PM
Once the fox is dead... Other animals can feed upon it. Worms, maggots, birds, rats, cats etc. It is a link in the food chain. If the animals is fit or strong enough is will out run or get away, if the animals is weak is will die. Survival of the fittest. Hounds were bred to scent and hunt, same principle for other canids. Many of prey animals kill for the hell of it and don't eat what they have caught.

Getting out a shotgun is great for controlling numbers of pest species- if you can aim properly, but it isn't so simple if you miss and the animals is severly wounded and in pain. Once the dogs get the fox, the life of the fox is ended in seconds. The same way a pack of wolves would set upon their prey. Run it down and then "go in for the kill". This is one feature that makes wolves brilliant hunters.

If the fox is fit for survival it will grow if food is plentiful- If it finds a mate and they breed; overtime the fox will adapt. One of those adaptations is to grow larger to take down lager items of prey and to eat more. In this case the fox in the article has done just that because it has fed on lots of scraps/rabbits/rats and cats....
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Borderdawn
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07-01-2011, 12:49 PM
Originally Posted by NOUSHKA05 View Post
yep your right it is MY choice thanks

and your point about cats being pets and foxes and wolves not is what exactly?....do you mean they have a right to kill wildlife but native predators dont???? ...i have siberian huskies a dog know for its prey drive and hunting abilities do i allow them to roam across the countryside killing the wildlife....No, because i love wildlife too much and i take responsibility for my pets!

ive just copied and pasted some facts below but ive added a few links aswell, and if after reading them you dont agree that free roaming cats are responsible for causing untold destruction not just to our wildlife but wildlife across the globe than you are seriously burying you head in the sand! ...and some might say very hypocritical!

Despite the difficulties in showing the effect most predators have on their prey, cats are known to have serious impacts on small mammals and birds. Worldwide, cats may have been involved in the extinction of more bird species than any other cause, except habitat destruction. Cats are contributing to the endangerment of populations of birds such as Least Terns, Piping Plovers and Loggerhead Shrikes. In Florida, marsh rabbits in Key West have been threatened by predation from domestic cats [11]. Cats introduced by people living on the barrier islands of Florida's coast have depleted several unique species of mice and woodrats to near extinction.

Because of their ability to overwhelm existing native species and natural ecosystem processes in environments in which they have been introduced, domestic cats are
moreover classified as invasive species. Invasive species, particularly predators, together with habitat destruction, have been a major cause of declines and extinctions of native species throughout the world for the past few centuries (Clavero and García-Berthou 2005). An analysis
of the International Union for the Conservation of Nature (IUCN) database has shown that predation alone and in concert with other contributing factors is responsible for more than 80% of all documented vertebrate extinctions . Due largely to impacts resulting
from its predation on other species, the domestic
cat is listed by the IUCN as one of the “100 of the world’s worst invasive alien species".



http://www.environment.sa.gov.au/bio...r_brochure.pdf

http://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/...estic_cats.pdf

http://www.thepetcenter.com/article.aspx?id=3482

http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proce...3989&O=Generic

http://www.mammal.org.uk/index.php?o...256&Itemid=289

How fantastic you included things from Australia where Cats are a pest and America too, well done! Just the sort of thing to enhance your argument for us in the UK.
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Noushka05
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07-01-2011, 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by rune View Post
Can't give you reps but excellent post.

I love cats but do know the damage they cause as a species.

rune
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
How fantastic you included things from Australia where Cats are a pest and America too, well done! Just the sort of thing to enhance your argument for us in the UK.
LOL how very predictable is your response .....seems you missed the link on the UK and all the scientific evidence of their destruction of wildlife right across the globe! and what about their threat to our last wild cat species the Scottish Wildcat?...of which there are thought to be only around 400 pure Wildcats left....yet 3500 hybrids...but i dare say true to form you'll keep your blinkers on with this aswell

see you cant really speak of 'keeping a balance' if you cant see anything wrong with allowing a non native predator (which is by far the most numerous predator in the UK!!!) to roam free and kill at will


heres a bit more info for you to dismiss

For example, in a survey on predation of wildlife by domestic cats in Great Britain, the commonest item brought home were wild mammals (69% of all items), followed by birds (24%), amphibians (4%), reptiles (1%), fish (less than 1%), invertebrates (1%) and unidentified prey (1%). In Britain, there are approximately 9 million cats (about 800,000 feral and 8 million pet cats) and the study estimated that the during the 5-month survey period, the British cat population brought home 52-63 million mammals, 25-29 million birds and 4-6 million reptiles and amphibians. There are difficulties in estimating these numbers for a number of reasons. First, not all cats kill wildlife and there is a great deal of variation in individual cat behaviour: some cats kill many more prey than others. Moreover, not all killed prey is brought home. A detailed study of ten sites in Bristol found a mean density of 348 cats per square kilometre: mean bird densities were just 1.17 adult birds and 3.07 juvenile birds per cat. Thus even very low levels of predation by cats is likely to have an impact: the most commonly taken species were ground foraging birds such as blackbirds, dunnocks, house sparrows and robins.
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Borderdawn
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07-01-2011, 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by NOUSHKA05 View Post
LOL how very predictable is your response .....seems you missed the link on the UK and all the scientific evidence of their destruction of wildlife right across the globe! and what about their threat to our last wild cat species the Scottish Wildcat?...of which there are thought to be only around 400 pure Wildcats left....yet 3500 hybrids...but i dare say true to form you'll keep your blinkers on with this aswell

see you cant really speak of 'keeping a balance' if you cant see anything wrong with allowing a non native predator (which is by far the most numerous predator in the UK!!!) to roam free and kill at will


heres a bit more info for you to dismiss

For example, in a survey on predation of wildlife by domestic cats in Great Britain, the commonest item brought home were wild mammals (69% of all items), followed by birds (24%), amphibians (4%), reptiles (1%), fish (less than 1%), invertebrates (1%) and unidentified prey (1%). In Britain, there are approximately 9 million cats (about 800,000 feral and 8 million pet cats) and the study estimated that the during the 5-month survey period, the British cat population brought home 52-63 million mammals, 25-29 million birds and 4-6 million reptiles and amphibians. There are difficulties in estimating these numbers for a number of reasons. First, not all cats kill wildlife and there is a great deal of variation in individual cat behaviour: some cats kill many more prey than others. Moreover, not all killed prey is brought home. A detailed study of ten sites in Bristol found a mean density of 348 cats per square kilometre: mean bird densities were just 1.17 adult birds and 3.07 juvenile birds per cat. Thus even very low levels of predation by cats is likely to have an impact: the most commonly taken species were ground foraging birds such as blackbirds, dunnocks, house sparrows and robins.
I couldnt give a monkeys what others do in their countries, Im more interested in the LAWS here thanks. You might want to look into pesticide poisoning, Trich' (I provided Birds for this) poisoning etc.. before you blame Cats, you do make me smile. Keep "estimating"
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Borderdawn
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07-01-2011, 01:53 PM
Put simply.

I have no issue with the damage Cats do, because they are not in any way responsible for much of any decline. However, should you wish to start a thread on cats Id be happy to take part. A huge problem with song Birds now is Trichomoniasis, which because of vermin species like Wood Pigeons and Collared Doves now being "garden" Birds, have dramatically reduced "some" numbers. I provided species for testing for this. Like what the damn Grey Squirrels have done to our Reds, the Woodies and Doves have done to Song Birds. they carry the disease, pass it on but do not die themselves, the Finches etc.. starve to death. Makes good reading.
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